Finding Purpose and Fulfillment Outside Traditional Legal Careers
Episode 16 | February 28, 2023
Episode 16 | February 28, 2023
Royalty visits Leveraging Latitude as the reigning Mrs. Universe catches up with Candice Reed. Juanita Ingram is an attorney, author, award-winning actress and filmmaker, and she is also the first black woman to be crowned Mrs. Universe. Juanita speaks about her unique career path and the life lessons she’s learned along the way. With her characteristic charm, wit, and vulnerability, she shares how she came to embrace her full self and the opportunity to be found in stepping outside the confines of established expectations. She discusses:
Juanita Ingram 00:00:00
There’s so much I can do. I personally feel like anything I put my hand to, I can do. So right now, it’s a matter of me selecting and deciding what is it that I’m going to do.
Candice Reed 00:00:14
This is Leveraging Latitude, Cultivating a Full Life in the Law. And we’re your hosts, Candice Reed.
Tim Haley 00:00:21
And Tim Haley.
Candice Reed 00:00:23
Please join us on our journey as we discover how to leverage the hard work of becoming a lawyer to achieving success and leading a rich and fulfilling life in the law.
Candice Reed 00:00:32
Hi Tim, I’m back.
Tim Haley 00:00:41
Candice, welcome back. Michelle tried to keep me in line, but she just couldn’t.
Candice Reed 00:00:45
I know that’s a tough job, but I’m happy to be back here and talk to you today.
Tim Haley 00:00:51
It is. It’s so great to have you back. So, what are we going to do today?
Candice Reed 00:00:56
Well, today we will be speaking to royalty. We are going to talk to Juanita Ingram, who is the reigning Mrs. Universe.
Tim Haley 00:01:08
There’s a Mrs. Universe? Miss Universe?
Candice Reed 00:01:11
Tim Haley 00:01:12
There’s two different things?
Candice Reed 00:01:13
There are two different things. Juanita is married and has two children, and so she competes in the Mrs. Pageants.
Tim Haley 00:01:22
Candice Reed 00:01:23
And she will tell you all about how she got involved in pageantry later in life. Well, she’s younger than me, so not too much later in life, but beyond the point at which most young women start competing in pageants.
Tim Haley 00:01:38
Well, and of course she’s a lawyer.
Candice Reed 00:01:40
She is also a lawyer. She is many things, as I mentioned. She is a mother, she is a wife. She is an attorney, an author. She is an actress. She is currently the executive producer and stars in an award-winning television series available on Amazon Prime, The Expats International Ingrams, which she will tell you more about. She has written a number of books. She has practiced both at large law firms as well as in-house. She does a lot and I can’t wait for you to hear her talk about the various twists and turns that her career and her life have taken over the last 20 years. Interestingly enough, both Juanita and I are from Chattanooga, Tennessee.
Tim Haley 00:02:38
Oh my gosh.
Candice Reed 00:02:38
So, we’re just two southern gals having a conversation and actually met as new associates, our first jobs out of law school. We worked at the same southeastern regional firm, Miller & Martin. She was on the corporate side, I was on the litigation side. And from there, one of us moved about three hours north to Nashville and the other one is currently living in Singapore and —
Tim Haley 00:03:09
Oh my gosh.
Candice Reed 00:03:10
… is the reigning Mrs. Universe. So, there’s a reason one of us is asking the questions and the other one is answering. But she has a very interesting life. We talk about pageantry. She also talked about the experience of a trailing spouse moving first to London, England, as a result of her husband’s job and promotion, and how that impacted not only her career, but also her mental wellbeing and some of the challenges with being what we often refer to as a trailing spouse, moving because of a spouse’s job. And so, just a lot of really great stuff, a conversation that we had, that I can’t wait for you to hear and to learn from. I know that I did.
Tim Haley 00:04:02
That’s great. I can’t wait to hear this. Of course, you’re not kidding. This is royalty, like all of our podcast guests, of course.
Candice Reed 00:04:08
But not all of them wear a crown. Let’s be real.
Tim Haley 00:04:11
I know, that’s right. That’s amazing, it’s great. Well, let’s do it.
Candice Reed 00:04:15
Okay, let me introduce you to Juanita Ingram.
Candice Reed 00:04:16
Juanita, thank you so much for talking with me today. I cannot tell you how excited I am for this conversation. Welcome, welcome to Leveraging Latitude.
Juanita Ingram 00:04:36
Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here. It’s so great to speak with you after all these years. It’s been so long, so I’m glad to be connected.
Candice Reed 00:04:45
I know, it has been what, 20 years? Since we were both associates at the same southeast US regional law firm, Miller & Martin. And now you still are an attorney, but also an author, an actress, an award-winning television and film producer, philanthropist, a wife, a mother, and the reigning Mrs. Universe. Wow. I don’t know how many days the last 20 years has had for you, but I feel like you may have had a few more years thrown in there.
Juanita Ingram 00:05:31
Candice Reed 00:05:31
Yeah, extra time.
Juanita Ingram 00:05:32
I didn’t and I felt every hour. I just didn’t have to feel it in 0.7 increments. I just didn’t have to bill for it. So, there’s that. But no, I feel really fortunate, and I tell people all the time, that is a culmination of time and it has been … I guess this is, gosh, 21 years of practicing law for me now. So yeah, it was 20 years ago you and I first started out law firm and a lot of things have happened since then and I’m excited about where I am now. But who would’ve known? I certainly didn’t.
Candice Reed 00:06:09
Well, that was a question I had. When you were mapping out your life, or at least your career in law school, or shortly after graduation, did you plan this? Did you foresee or envision where you are now? What did you think your career would look like and how is it different than the reality?
Juanita Ingram 00:06:32
Yeah, I didn’t foresee any of this. I mean, I started out, I’m from Chattanooga. I started out in theater and performing as a child and throughout high school, I played five instruments. My mother was a musician. So, I started out in theater and the arts, I didn’t really take it … It’s not that I didn’t take it that serious, I just didn’t think of it in terms of how it would play out in my career. I knew it was something that I really enjoyed and something I was good at. But then I just started adulting. I didn’t really think about it that much and I just put it on the back burner. I thought that I would be a judge. That’s what my goal was. Now, I may have a judge show someday, but there’s that.
Candice Reed 00:07:19
Juanita Ingram 00:07:21
Yeah, Judge Juanita, it has a ring to it. But I always thought that I would be a judge. I enjoyed being an attorney and I still do; I still love the practice of law. I haven’t practiced law in the traditional way since we’ve been living abroad, except there’s a period of time when we came back to the U.S., and I was assistant general counsel and picked right back up with the company. But yeah, I just assumed that I would have this traditional legal career and I did my JD-MBA thinking I would always be a business attorney. That’s what I envisioned.
Juanita Ingram 00:07:55
I had no intention of doing pageants. I didn’t even know — Until I was married, I didn’t know that there were Mrs. Pageants. I didn’t really think about pageants growing up. I had no interest in them whatsoever. People ask me all the time, “Did you do pageants?” Absolutely not. Honestly, I didn’t think that highly of them. I’ll be honest. I mean, I’ll consider my audience now and I’ll just be totally honest. I didn’t think that highly of them. I thought they were kind of silly. I considered myself to be in academia and because at the time that I did my first pageant, I was an adjunct professor, I was practicing full-time at a law firm, Bose McKinney & Evans in Indiana, in Indianapolis.
Juanita Ingram 00:08:37
In fact, right after I left Miller & Martin, that’s where I went. And then I was an adjunct professor for business law at Butler University. So, I had absolutely no intention of going in any type of fine arts direction at all. My undergrad degree is in accounting.
Candice Reed 00:08:55
Wow. There’s so many interesting sidebars that we could probably take with what you just said. First of all, I’m so interested to hear what five instruments you play.
Juanita Ingram 00:09:08
Flute, piccolo, saxophone, piano, and percussion.
Candice Reed 00:09:12
Saxophone player right here. I had no idea that I was talking to a former band nerd.
Juanita Ingram 00:09:18
Oh, I was drum major. I was drum major in high school. I was drum major in high school and then I marched all four years in college at Tennessee State at HBCU at Tennessee State University. I was section leader. And at Tennessee State we were musicians first, so it’s very much performance band. I will say shout out to Tennessee State University for winning two Grammys this year.
Candice Reed 00:09:41
Juanita Ingram 00:09:42
Even though I’m not in the band right now, I will always … I had friends who graduated from TSU, they were in the nursing program and they were making posts like, “Yes, I’m a graduate of the Grammy award-winning Tennessee State University.” I’m like, “Weren’t you in the nursing program?” But either way, we’re claiming it. We’re claiming it. But we were musicians first. It was a performance, and we were performers and the band; that band in particular has always had that standard of excellence in terms of taking … Our positions were not guaranteed. We did not march 400 people on the field. It was 196 every year. Not 197, not 198. And you auditioned every year for your position. And it was serious. I have a love, as you could tell, still for music to this day. I think it is … it gives you transferrable skills and it’s the only time that I can take a break and I can’t think about anything else other than what I’m doing or what I’m playing in that moment, because it’s very relaxing.
Candice Reed 00:10:38
Do you still play?
Juanita Ingram 00:10:39
I do. My mother plays every instrument though. I started piano when I was four. And my mother’s a retired school teacher, but she was a music teacher, public school system for 32 years. But she plays every instrument. And so, I could not go outside and play until I finished my piano lessons and my flute lessons. And so, she took that very serious in our family and my upbringing. But it taught me discipline and really gave me the focus and it’s a transferrable skill or a life skill, in that you are only as good as you practice and the work that you put in, so you’re not going to be any better than the work, and it shows. And that’s true in life with anything that you do. And it kept me out of a lot of trouble because band was life for me, and I was only focused on that. I didn’t care about anything else as long as I did all my work and got everything out of the way so I could make the band practice.
Juanita Ingram 00:11:31
But I think that skillset and the love for the arts was always there, just brewing at the surface, waiting for a reason to come back out. So, when we moved to London for my husband’s job promotion, and I couldn’t practice law traditionally for the first time in my life…After I went through about a four-month identity crisis and a little bit of depression because trailing spouse depression is a real thing. It’s an actual clinical diagnosis. I didn’t know it at the time, that that’s what that was, but thank God for life coaches and career coaches. And I invested in that, and it all made sense and everything all came together. And I gave myself permission to be the multi-hyphenate multifaceted person that I always had been but had just never given myself permission to be. And everything is in a season. So, at one point it was only the season for me to be a very focused attorney and focus on that. And then this was a season that I could focus on other things that, apparently, I do well, just as much as the law.
Candice Reed 00:12:39
I would say so. So how many years had you been practicing before you moved to London?
Juanita Ingram 00:12:45
Oh, that was in 2011. So eight, nine years. So, I came out in December of ’02. So, about around eight to nine years I’d been practicing and that’s a substantial amount of time. We moved to London. I was in-house council for Rolls-Royce. So, I accumulated top 40 under 40 in Up and Coming Law Awards. And I didn’t leave because I wasn’t good. It wasn’t going downhill, and obvious I needed to do something else — that wasn’t it at all. In fact, I was on a call with the Alumni Foundation for Tennessee State right after I won Mrs. Universe, because I was the first Black woman to win and coming from the HBCU, everybody was celebrating. And I was on a call with the president of the university, and I did not know that my former mentor was … I didn’t know he was on the foundation. I didn’t know he was on the board. And Judge Collier was on the call from federal … retired federal judge. And he had said, “You do remember that you had aspirations for the bench someday?” I said, “Yes sir, I recall.”
Candice Reed 00:13:51
He remembered that?
Juanita Ingram 00:13:51
He remembered, yeah.
Candice Reed 00:13:52
Juanita Ingram 00:13:53
Because I think that was his desire for me as well. And so, it wasn’t a situation where my legal career wasn’t in full stream, positive direction. It was. And as a dutiful wife — I didn’t really take full stock though of what it meant when I walked away. You get so caught up in this idea of new things. And I was so happy for my husband and his job promotion, what it meant for his career and for us as a family, you don’t really fully take stock until … I remember the sound of the gravel underneath the car wheels when he was pulling out of the driveway. And that was the first time it was … I think we had been in London like two days, and he was going to work. I was standing there with two small kids whom I had never been a stay-at-home mom with. And they were looking at me like, “What we do now?” This is 11 years ago before the advances that we have now. We didn’t have streaming and a lot of fun things. We didn’t have furniture. And it was an interesting time.
Juanita Ingram 00:14:57
And I remember those first four months, I probably cried every day because I had colleagues calling all the time like, “Okay, now what are you doing? All right now, what does this mean for your career? Okay, are you sure about this? Okay, you just quit Rolls-Royce, what are you thinking?” And the flood of, what-are-you-thinking narratives, came in and they started weighing on me.
Candice Reed 00:15:19
I really appreciate that you’re mentioning this because I talk to so many attorneys, day in and day out, whose identity comes from their job, comes from their profession. They are an attorney. And while that is a very honorable thing to be or title to hold, sometimes it can hold people back because it can make it hard to take chances or to make a change to become something else, or to become something in addition to being an attorney. So, can you talk about how you needed — you said you gave yourself that time to grieve and to feel all your feelings about losing that identity, or at least losing part of it. I’m curious how that time that you took, that grieving that you experienced, how that opened up perhaps more space to allow you to then consider what other things you might do or be.
Juanita Ingram 00:16:35
Yes. I think it’s important that it was just that, it was a mourning, but more so, it wasn’t a mourning of loss of identity because so oftentimes, we think that what it is identity. But what we really struggle with and that fear of is worth. Your identity could change —
Candice Reed 00:16:52
Juanita Ingram 00:16:58
Yeah. We make identity and worth synonymous. They’re not. And so, what I had to do was learn that, that while … and also, understand exactly what my identity was and that I am not just an attorney. And that had to be okay with me first. The practice of law is such a conservative function. It was such a conservative industry. And that’s okay, on the surface. What we normally see, what’s put forth on a regular basis is very conservative, very combined, very finite, very clear. And so, what I had to do was actually do the work to understand what my true identity was because I was, yes, Juanita the attorney, but just because I decided to do something else … It’s almost like somebody who’s a doctor and they decided to do something else. Do they stop becoming a doctor, really?
Candice Reed 00:17:50
Juanita Ingram 00:17:51
You never really stop, but it’s like … and you just don’t, I’ll always be a lawyer. So, what was my real issue? What is the real problem? Because there’s only two emotions in life. There’s love and there’s fear. So, anything that you feel outside of love, outside of positivity, is based in fear. So, what was the fear? Was the fear truly my identity, really? Did that change me as Juanita? Did I stop becoming a lawyer? No, I actually didn’t. What my fear was, was that my worth and my value decreased because the traditional trajectory of being a lawyer shifted and changed. I had to sit and mourn, yes, this isn’t the direction that I thought that things were going to go in. I had to mourn and let that go because those were my expectations that I had for myself.
Juanita Ingram 00:18:40
In doing so, it did free me up to stop looking back and stop mourning what I thought was the best. Because that’s also the fear, is that, oh my gosh, this was the best and now I no longer have the best. That is a narrative in your own head. That is not factual, that’s not true. That’s not how life works. And the reality is that I went straight through undergrad, I passed the bar the first time. Nobody plateaus in life at 25. That’s just what it’s … Now, of course in our field, you always keep growing as an attorney because passing the bar and going through law school, that doesn’t teach you how to be a lawyer. It’s just the tip, it’s the starting point. But even at eight years in, I had to understand what my worth and my value was. What my real identity is and who I am, what my mission in life is, what my higher purpose is. I invested in a life coach that helped me to see … because I got accused of everything from being flighty, midlife crisis. I’m like, “I’m only in my 30s.” Even if I had a midlife crisis, it’s a little too soon to do that right now.
Candice Reed 00:19:50
Don’t take that away from me. That may still come.
Juanita Ingram 00:19:51
Right. I’m like — That’s still on the plate. It’s coming, but this isn’t it. But I had to figure out what my life’s purpose was clearly, beyond just being a lawyer and understanding that while that may be someone’s plateau and someone’s landing space, it was okay for that to be my launching pad.
Candice Reed 00:20:16
Juanita Ingram 00:20:16
It was okay. And sometimes other people will see things and they will equate a value to that for you, that is the epitome. You should value that because if they attained it would be the epitome for them. Or someone else explained it to me like, God gives us all a particular type of highway to drive down in life. Somebody may have two lanes, three lanes, I have five. And I had to give myself — and it’s okay … it has be okay with you first, then everybody else will catch on it. If they never do, that’s okay too because once you … it’s okay with you and you get it, you don’t really care about other people. If they get it, they do. If they don’t, they don’t. But you have to get it first.
Juanita Ingram 00:20:58
I started meeting with a life coach that really helped me to draft a mission statement and to see what was undergirding everything that I was doing, everything that I desired to do. When I went to London, that was the first time that I started writing books. But they were always in me. I just didn’t have time to write them because I was a mother and an attorney and a wife and that was all I had time to do. So, taking that break, the books started pouring out. They were already there, and people were like, “Since when did you start writing? Since when were you an author … ” Everything that you do outside of the four square lines that they draw for you in terms of what is a lawyer, it makes people uncomfortable and they project their issues onto you because they too are operating primarily out of fear, so their fears get projected onto you. But my life coach helped me to research other lawyers that were multi-hyphenates and that were multifaceted to give myself permission to understand that I was in good company. That it’s okay to be a whole brainer, for my left and right brain to function the same, at the same level, that it was okay and that I was not … I think our fear is that we’re weird or that we’re strange, or that people will see us as strange, or that people will give a label to us —
Candice Reed 00:22:07
Juanita Ingram 00:22:08
Candice Reed 00:22:09
Do you think so?
Juanita Ingram 00:22:11
Yeah. And you have to redefine what success is to you.
Candice Reed 00:22:14
Juanita Ingram 00:22:15
And have a real clear … and that’s hard to do because we live in a society of opinions, and sometimes we live by … and our profession is such that we live for a performance review. Every month, we want to tick the box and know we have enough billable hours. It’s a constant profession of validation. You look for the validation from your partners, you look for the validation from the bar. It’s a constant, “tell me I’m okay.” And it is a very strong person that can stand and say, “I’m good because I’m good, because I’m living what I’m supposed to do. And it may not look like what everybody else is supposed to do.” It’s interesting because I started this journey, maybe, I guess 15 years ago in pageantry in particular, but 11 years ago and living abroad and a decade later, I get all these attorneys that are like, “Oh my gosh, I would love to have your life.” And I’m like, “10 years ago though, I was crazy, and I was all over the place.” And I was like, but it will always look strange to somebody else because it is not traditional. And that stirs up feelings and some people embrace it, I always thought it was cool, but then … I am a left brain, right brain person. But it has to make sense to you first and then it’ll make sense to everybody else. But it comes down to worth and value. And then you understand your real identity and who you are, not what other people have given you and maybe even the worth you’ve given yourself, which can be very limited.
Candice Reed 00:23:44
I love that you made that distinction. It’s such a great aha moment for me. And I can think back on some of my own experiences, where I did something different, or I took a chance, or that leap of faith. Is there a moment or a decision in your career, or the last 20 years when you’ve been working that you can pinpoint as, “Yes, this is the moment when I gave myself permission to be … ” as you said, “All of me.” Multifaceted. What was that moment for you?
Juanita Ingram 00:24:26
I think again, when I was in London and … because even after I won my first pageant, I was the first Black woman to ever win Mrs. Indiana USA, and I hid it.
Candice Reed 00:24:39
You hid —
Juanita Ingram 00:24:39
I was ashamed. I did, I hid it. I didn’t really live in that moment because there were some people that I liked to celebrate with. And then there were … for the most part, I didn’t really put it out there because I was so afraid of what would people think. I knew why I wanted to do it. I’d been invited to a lot of different elementary schools in the inner city because believe it or not, to a lot of young Black children, it still means a lot to see a Clair Huxtable-type figure because it seems like it’s still a fictional character to a lot of inner-city youth. I wanted to be that person to tell them, “Hey, study hard, make good decisions,” and we still need that. So, the only reason why I got pageants was just to have more opportunities to do that. And I felt like, well, why not? I prayed. You got to be careful what you pray for and got to when those moments when you’re like, “Oh God, use me,” be very careful when you say that because He will and then you’ll be —
Candice Reed 00:25:33
I can hear my grandmother, my late grandmother, giving me that same advice when I was younger.
Juanita Ingram 00:25:39
Careful what you pray for. And I was like, “God, how can I have more opportunities to do this? Use me more.” And I heard pageantry whisper and I’m like, “There’s no way on Earth I’m doing that. I am in academia. I don’t need anybody to tell me I’m cute. I know I clean up well. I don’t need that in my life. Pageants are silly. They objectify women.” I was on a different level with that. Then God took me to the Book of Esther to see that it can be done with purpose and in a way that is necessary and needed, especially for the demographic that I am called to. So, I think in that, that was part one or step one in giving myself permission and understanding that it wasn’t even all about me. When you really are on a purpose-driven, mission-based work in life, and understanding that you live beyond just yourself, that was part of it that kept me willing to give myself permission. And then the second part came when I went to London and left the U.S. and had no choice but to sit down and figure out who is Juanita beyond the attorney? Because I don’t believe that when we shift and pivot into different spaces that we leave … I mean, unless you lose your license and you’re no longer licensed, that’s a different story. But actually still being a lawyer, I don’t think you necessarily have to consider yourself not being an attorney because you are in a different or non-traditional field, I —
Candice Reed 00:27:01
Or don’t have that job that, like you said, fits into this square box that we have —
Juanita Ingram 00:27:08
Candice Reed 00:27:08
… built around so many attorney jobs.
Juanita Ingram 00:27:11
Exactly. My life coach gave me an assignment one day, to go and research attorneys that did other things. And she was like, “I just don’t think you realize that you’re not odd. You’re not in bad company. You might be greater than what you think, and it might not be as odd as you think. Go research and come back to me.” I did this whole research of lanes, like different attorneys that had different lanes. Everybody from Gandhi, to Mandela, to Clive Davis who runs Jive Records, who’s a Harvard attorney. I don’t think he misses a day in the courtroom. He discovered Whitney Houston.
Candice Reed 00:27:50
No, I didn’t realize that.
Juanita Ingram 00:27:50
Yeah, he discovered Whitney Houston. I don’t think that man misses a day. Iyanla Vanzant is a former New York prosecutor. I don’t think she misses it. There are people that are called to do great things, even from Michelle Obama, who also is the epitome of a trailing spouse. Who, quite frankly, I think is greater than her husband. Don’t tell her that, or don’t tell him that but she’s awesome —
Candice Reed 00:28:13
I won’t, next time we have dinner, I’ll keep my mouth shut.
Juanita Ingram 00:28:16
Please don’t tell her I said, but there are so many people that have done some amazing things. The actor who starred … Have you ever watched the movie 300 about Spartans?
Candice Reed 00:28:26
Juanita Ingram 00:28:27
Okay. There’s a movie called 300, it’s about Spartans. And the lead actor got fired from his job as an attorney with one of the major law firms because he went to a film festival because he wanted to be an actor. And now he is a brilliant actor. He was in 300, he’s an attorney. And Matthew McConaughey was discovered in law school. There are so many people that have legal backgrounds, that go on to do amazing things and they don’t miss the traditional trajectory that they were on.
Candice Reed 00:29:03
And if they do, there’s usually an opportunity to go back. If you did get out there and decide, “Hey, I want to go back to that other lane. I tried this one for a while, but I feel like home is going back.”
Juanita Ingram 00:29:21
Well, and I did go back. The thing is, after London, and we moved back to Indianapolis for three, almost four years, I was assistant general counsel at Allegion. I was working the whole time as a lawyer and still knowing, especially at that time, very much knowing that this was not what I was supposed to do long term. That this was something that I can do, I can do it well. But this was not all that I was supposed to do. And even while I was there, that’s when I started my legal talk show, Legal Notion. I started my production company, I continued to act. I wasn’t sure if when I was in London, if acting and going more of the fine arts route, if that was something I was supposed to continue or is it for a season?
Juanita Ingram 00:30:10
I’m really big on doing things in the right season, so I remember … because it comes in stages, it wasn’t one moment where I was just like, “Now I’m going to shift and I’m never going back.” I took it in doses and in stages. So, the first time being when I first won my first pageant and understanding that it was for a bigger cause and using it for community, but I was still very timid about putting it out there. Second was when we moved to London and I gave myself permission to say, “Okay, I love acting, I love performing. Let me go see if I can get signed, get an agent.” And I did. London is a very hard town to get signed and I started back acting. I got my first indie feature film, my first best actress nomination with the British Urban Film Festival. It was great run. But when we were moving back to America, I was like, “Okay, is it time?” In my mind, “Is it time to adult again?” And so, that wasn’t adulting, is this season over? Am I supposed to shift?
Juanita Ingram 00:31:07
I auditioned for this television series and I was like, “God, if I get this, it’ll be a sign that I’m supposed to continue.” And that’s when I started and I did. So I was like, okay. And I started doing both and started my production company and then knew eventually we would go back to live overseas. I’d already had the vision for The Expats the last year we were in London. But I knew it wasn’t time to film it. And I was intentional about going back to the traditional practice of law, to fund my habits, to fund my … it just funded my habits of what I wanted to do in the creative space. I saved my salary, my last 18 months working, knowing that I would need seed money for my production company to produce these narratives and stories and to really feed that into the nonprofit. So, that’s what I did. And it was intentional, I became intentional.
Juanita Ingram 00:32:06
I think going back into the practice of law solidified two things for me at that time. One that I was a whole-brainer. That I wasn’t doing one thing because I was unsuccessful as a lawyer. That wasn’t it. I truly had found a passion and a love and was called into multi different areas. And so, I spent some time really sitting with that and letting that be okay and then not apologizing for it and slowly dripping into the fullness of it. And when I would win film festival awards, I wouldn’t hide it. I didn’t shy away from it. And there were certain experiences where I knew staying in a corporate setting was not for me. I just had a desire to help more people, to do more with my existence here on Earth than what that role was allowing me to do. And it just became very, very clear to the point where when we moved to Taiwan in 2019, I had no regrets, no problems. In fact, I was like, “Finally, it’s time.” And I knew it was time.
Candice Reed 00:33:16
Is that when you first came up with the idea or first started to put together the idea for a television docuseries about Black Americans traveling and living abroad?
Juanita Ingram 00:33:30
I started the idea in 2015 or last year in London. At that time, I still had people that knew me that wanted me to be their attorney. So, I still had people that I knew that were in the entertainment space and I would do their deals for them, or review their contracts. So, I practiced a little bit of entertainment law and they were in the unscripted space. So, I was in the pre-production meetings and doing their releases and just in that industry and that genre. And I knew that there was a need and a niche. As a filmmaker and storyteller, you always want to tell a story that hasn’t been told and do something that hasn’t been done. And we used to do these things called Soul Food Sunday, where we would go from house to house all the Black Americans that were in London at the time. And one day we were there, celebrating a family that was going back, the kids were playing, Beyonce was playing in the background, we were barbecuing, we could’ve have been anywhere in America. But then I looked up and there was Windsor Castle because that’s where we were living at the time. And I was like, “This is a show,” because nobody would believe … nobody’s ever showed what it’s like to live abroad. House Hunters International‘s just picking a house. That’s the least of your concerns, that’s the least of your problems. That’s not living. So, in 2015 is where I thought of the show, 2018 is where I started doing the pre-production work and again started saving for the show because as I pitched the show in 2017/2018, nobody could get what I was talking about because they had never been done. So, I would pitch the different networks and different production companies and they were like, “So, it’s a travel show?” And I’m like, “No, it’s not a travel show.” So —
Candice Reed 00:35:07
I’m sorry to interrupt you. I wanted to get out the name of the show and be intentional, as you said, about introducing it to some of our listeners who may not be familiar with it. We’re talking about the Telly and Webby award-winning Amazon Prime series The Expats International Ingrams. And it’s a docuseries that chronicles the international adventures of Black Americans living and working abroad. And you star in and produce this show. It’s in its second season. And personally, just as a viewer, it is very different than what you might typically think of when you talk about unscripted television. This is not the Real Housewives of Taiwan, or the Real Housewives of London or Singapore. It is family friendly, informational, educational, life affirming, enriching conversation with other Black expats. And you tackle a lot of topics, both about living abroad and in comparison with living in the United States. Topics like colorism, Black Lives Matter, even the trailing spouse depression that you talked about earlier. What made you want to do this type of show? You’ve mentioned a little bit about it, but now that we’ve introduced it to the listeners here, in your words, what is it, what makes it different? Why is it important?
Juanita Ingram 00:36:54
So oftentimes, and then again this goes back to my times when I was entertainment lawyer to some of my clients who were in the unscripted space and they would pitch shows, by the time it got picked up and green lit, it was a totally different show. Sometimes our narrative is taken and perverted and there’s a show for everybody. There’s something for everyone. I’m not knocking anybody else’s show, but for Black-led cast, it is oftentimes the formula for entertainment is the same. It is always built and riddled in conflict. Always, someone’s fighting somebody, throwing drinks, flipping tables. It is always violent to a certain extent. And I’m not knocking that, one person’s level of violence is another person’s mindless entertainment. I get that. And there is a show for everybody. It’s just that Black people are not a monolithic group and that’s not all that we are.
Juanita Ingram 00:37:45
The problem is when you put forth those type of shows and there’s no variety and storyline and how a particular group is depicted, then it becomes a very toxic stereotype. And that is the only depiction of conflict resolution that you have for Black people in the unscripted genre, is the same thing over and over again. And I knew that we needed diversity just as much as we are a diverse group. Our shows need to be diverse. They need to show us in a diverse manner. If not, you’re continuing to perpetuate things in stereotypes and very toxic depictions of Blackness. Not just domestically, but globally.
Juanita Ingram 00:38:22
I knew the need for the show. I was getting my nails done in London. It was right before I left and there was used to be a show about Black sorority life. It only stayed on one season, and they were fighting and cursing. And Black sorority members are usually college educated women, usually pledge when you’re in college. But this is the depiction that they had of us. It was just pure conflict, pure fighting, nothing good, just pure fighting. I put my key chain down to get my nails done. This Black British woman was like, “Oh, you’re a part of that group. Why do you act that way on television? It’s so embarrassing. You’re embarrassing us. You’re making people … You’re supposed to be college educated women. Why would you do that?” And I’m like, “Whoa. First of all, not on the show. Nothing to do with that. It’s not me.” But I understood the impact that it had. And so oftentimes, these shows for particular groups, everybody has variety but us you have everything from Duck Dynasty to Chrisley Knows Best, to The Kardashians, to the Real Housewives of Orange County and New York. There’s a gamut on the continuum of shows. We don’t have that. Where’s our Chris Chrisley? Where’s our family? You know got to go Cosby Show, Different World, Blackish, scripted television, to see positive, strong images of us that are honest and genuine.
Juanita Ingram 00:39:36
Also, so I am creating a genre within the genre. I’m a voting member of the Television Academy. I’m a member of the peer reality group, a voting member. I’ve been a judge for the Emmys. I’ve been a judge for daytime and prime. And there needs to be a change in a shift in how Black-led casts in the unscripted space, how we are depicted and how we’re handled. And I knew if I didn’t do it no one else would. Because when I pitched it, everybody asked me, “Well, where’s your ensemble cast? And where’s the conflict? Who’s fighting that season? Who’s going to fight?” Honest questions. And I won’t say which networks said this to me, but some of them were Black networks, some of them were not. Some of them were. And it is the way in which production companies handle Black-led casts unscripted television. So, we need to reform and reshape and just give some variety to that. And why is it that the only … life presents enough drama. I think the last two years that we’ve been living in, it’s been dramatic. But other shows — I know he’s in prison and you should pay your taxes, but Chrisley Knows Best was one of my favorite shows, I think he is … Todd Chrisley is hilarious. I want to hang out with the grandmother. She is my cup of tea. I think she is hilarious. I just find him so funny. Why can’t we have a show about a family just being and they just don’t happen to be Black? Why can’t we just normalize us just being and have that as an option? We never had it before. We have it now in my show. But I think normalizing us, dealing with the everyday conflicts of life is something that is new and for whatever reason and the past, we haven’t —
Candice Reed 00:41:16
Oh, I’m sorry, like your puppy, your new puppy, using the bathroom all over your house. I related to that.
Juanita Ingram 00:41:24
Nugget has a whole storyline. Nugget’s storyline is deeper than mine. I mean Nugget is making his debut in Season 2, and Chicken Nugget is … child, he needed help. He was just, he did. And he’s a better man right now. He’s doing okay. He made it, I won’t give the show away or anything season away. But Chicken Nugget needed some help. And don’t we all go through that when we get a dog?
Candice Reed 00:41:48
That’s what I’m saying. I could relate. Here you are at the time in Taiwan dealing with a new puppy because your daughter wanted a dog. And I’m pretty sure that as I’m watching it, I was yelling at my cat that my daughter wanted during the pandemic and that we got during the pandemic, so she would have a little friend and I’m cursing this cat who seems to have no boundaries. Then I watched your show and it’s like —
Juanita Ingram 00:42:18
And your cat and Chicken Nugget are … yes, on the same page. Yeah. I personally feel, as a side note, I personally feel like Chicken Nugget spoke Mandarin and that was the problem. He wasn’t understanding what we said because he was a Taiwanese dog and we got him in Taiwan. He probably spoke Mandarin and we just didn’t know what to say because … anyway, but you to watch the show, to figure out why that matters.
Juanita Ingram 00:42:41
But yeah, I just felt like giving us variety, any time you put forth a particular group in a particular light constantly and you never show the variety of that group. It’s not to say that we don’t fight and throw tables, everybody has … You have a continuum of people within any demographic. You’ve got Honey Boo Boo and Duck Dynasty and you’ve got the Real Housewives of Dubai. Everybody has a continuum within their ethnic group. To not put forth diversity within that ethnic group is an intentional act of promoting stereotypes. And so, I felt that it was necessary for us as a society. And I think that’s where the arts have always come to play. Where we are able to have dialogues and conversations and promote change in spaces that we previously couldn’t without the arts. Whether it’s a play, whether it’s a movie, whether it’s a television show, that ushers in these type of dialogues and change that are necessary to have that otherwise wouldn’t get done. We just found out yesterday that we won an Anthem Award. The Anthem Awards are produced by the Webby Awards and they’re for purpose driven work.
Candice Reed 00:43:54
Oh, congratulations. That’s fantastic.
Juanita Ingram 00:43:57
Thank you. Thank you. Tracee Ellis Ross won, Billy Porter, CNN. It was great, but in good company.
Candice Reed 00:44:03
What a great company.
Juanita Ingram 00:44:04
Yeah, we’re in great company, but it’s for this work that’s doing change in a particular space. So, we won for diversity inclusion in the television space. And it’s not just what’s in front of the camera, so with our cast, but also how we operated as a production company, I was very intentional on having diversity, what we call in film above and below the line. So, above the line are the actors. Below the line are the producers, editors, directors. And being very intentional when I was in Taiwan of hiring an entire Taiwanese cast, whether that meant there were language barriers or not, it was important for me to have that cultural impact of where we were and being intentional about also bringing opportunities for minority groups within the production field, particularly for women, and unapologetically so.
Juanita Ingram 00:45:55
I had one woman who was our cinematographer. During the pandemic when we were in Asia, we had real restrictions. It could only be five people in a particular place at any given time. Now, you have me and my family filming, that means you have one person. There’s no sound, there’s no grips, there are no production assistants, there’s one person. And I worked with this one female videographer in Taiwan, her name is Morley, who is the most phenomenal person I’ve ever seen in that particular field. At one point in time for the scene, for petty court during lockdown, we were really in lockdown, and she was the only person that was allowed to be there. She was manning five cameras and audio and lighting all by herself for that scene. One woman. And she was —
Candice Reed 00:45:37
Juanita Ingram 00:45:37
… I mean, the epitome of women’s empowerment. And so, making sure that you give credit and opportunity for the amazing things that women do and that only we can do because I personally feel like only a woman could have done it. You know what I saying? Women are like kitchen cabinets and men are filing cabinets. I don’t mean to be sexist or anything like that, but like a filing cabinet, you have to close one door to open another one, that’s usually how — and we’re like kitchen cabinets and all of them can be open at the same time. I felt like she created that magic because of her womanhood, and her talent and ability and skillset, and the way that we approach things and bringing that diversity to the space is only a positive in how you solve problems, in the practical and in the strategic. And that’s just one example. But it was really important. How we went about bringing forth the show and how it looked and then normalizing us in international spaces. You don’t really get to see that a lot. I was doing an interview for another podcast and I can’t remember what group it was for, but the interviewer told me, she said, “You know Juanita, expat space is usually all white.” And I’m like, “Well, you said it. I didn’t. I didn’t say that, you did.” But primarily it usually is, but what is depicted? And so, you don’t really see us in that particular space, but there are hundreds of thousands of us that are choosing to live abroad. And this is Black expat month, celebration of the number of people … everyone from Tina Turner to James Baldwin, Maya Angelou, who took periods of time to live abroad, explore their identity, explore their greatness, and come back and thrive. And so —
Candice Reed 00:47:19
Do you think there’s something to that, in terms of having going abroad, going outside of the United States, to fully discover or embrace your voice, as you mentioned earlier, your value? Do you feel like you could have done that in the United States, or was there something about being abroad that made that a richer process for you?
Juanita Ingram 00:47:43
Yeah, I don’t think I could have stayed in the U.S. I think going to London opened the door to what was possible and it opened my mind and it forced me to look at myself. It’s a lot of Black expats, whether it’s Frederick Douglass, a lot of them have talked about that time that they spent outside of the U.S. because sometimes the burden and the weight of race relations in the U.S. is exhausting. And we are so busy in surviving, that we are not in a space of creativity. We’re not in a space of healing. We’re not in a space that allows us to really thrive and to even see ourselves in that way, or to think of ourselves in that way. Right before we moved to Taiwan, I was getting ready to start. The first day I was going to film for my legal talk show. And the first episode was surviving a police stop. And I pulled out of my driveway, it was my birthday, I was 41, and I pulled out of my driveway and a police officer pulled me over. And when I rolled down my window, his hand immediately went on his gun, immediately, unclipped gun. And I’m like, “What the heck is going on right now?” I had my license and registration in my hand. Because in my mind I’m like, “This is great. It’s going to play out. I’m getting ready to film this show and I’ll be able to talk about how I did these things.” But his hand went on his gun, and I froze. I was like, “Oh my God, what the heck is happening right now?” And I asked him after the exchange — and he was like, “Oh, I just want to write you a warning.” But he asked me what was I doing in the neighborhood?
Candice Reed 00:49:15
Juanita Ingram 00:49:15
“I live here, dude, I just pulled out of my house. What did you think I pulled out of? Did you think I was robbing the whole … ” I don’t know what he was thinking. Then I was like, “Well, I live here.” And he was like, “Okay.” And then he ran my license and registration and just said, “Well, I’m going to let you go with a warning right now.” And I was like a warning for what? And I said, “Let me ask you something. I’m a lawyer. I’m getting ready to go film this show. Can I ask you why you pulled me over? Why you put your hand on your gun? Why you asked me why I was living here? I’m getting ready to go film this show, I just want to know. I’m not challenging you. I just want to know.” And he said, “You have a nice day, ma’am.” And he wouldn’t say anything.
Candice Reed 00:49:50
He never answered your question.
Juanita Ingram 00:49:53
Never answered my question. That experience stayed with me. There are so many times when that is our reality. It’s exhausting. I don’t want to deal with it. There have been times, even within my career, starting out as a young lawyer in a particular space where they would over-explain to clients. “She’s from here. Her father is this person, her mother is this person. Her dad works at UTC and she has a law degree and an MBA.” And I remember one time being introduced and them saying, “Sometimes you look under a rock, and you just find a good one and Juanita’s one of the good ones.”
Candice Reed 00:50:27
Juanita Ingram 00:50:27
And he was talking about Black people, Black attorneys, and there were two other white associate lawyers in the room. And they didn’t get an introduction at all. It was just like, “Oh, this is someone that’s going to be working on your account. This is so and so and so, and here’s Juanita. And let me explain to you why she’s here.” It’s exhausting. And that’s part of being Black and being in America. And that’s part of the things that we deal with and we’re working on, diversity and inclusion and belonging and all of these other things and folks being allies and all of that other rhetoric. That’s great, it’s exhausting.
Juanita Ingram 00:50:59
So, I think being abroad gave me permission to just breathe and to even think about myself. I didn’t have the luxury of sitting down saying, “Oh, how great can Juanita be today?” So it wasn’t really ability to do that. So yes, living abroad gave me the freedom to just know that I was safe, and no one was going to pull me over and put their hand on their gun. Cops aren’t allowed to carry guns in London. Cops aren’t allowed … No one in Taiwan was ever going to do that to me or to my children. My kids had a lemonade stand in our neighborhood and you could see the house that we were living in in Carmel, in the type of neighborhood and very steep homeowner’s association dues that we were paying in that neighborhood. They had a lemonade stand and someone called the police officer.
Candice Reed 00:51:41
Juanita Ingram 00:51:42
And that that’s not uncommon. That is unfortunately very much the norm. That mess is exhausting. You cannot think sometimes holistically about what’s my future like? You just don’t have the freedom sometimes. And Frederick Douglass talked about that. James Baldwin talked about just need a mental break of the exhausting experience. I don’t have another word for it. I need to get a thesaurus and find another word for exhausting. But it is taxing to have to operate in that way and also to have greatness inside of you and to have to deal with so much and balancing so much at the same time, that when you take these type of breaks, all type of things bloom and blossom and come forth.
Juanita Ingram 00:52:28
Living in Singapore is like this utopia type of bliss, it’s a very … they push this racial harmony. There’s no perfect place. I say this all the time, you’re not going to outrun racism because places are made up of people. The difference is in being abroad is that you’re not going to die from it. And that piece alone is enough and exactly what you need sometimes, that level … And studies have shown and talked about this. I was speaking at the U.S. Embassy here in Singapore for Black History Month and we were on a panel talking about statistically the way that stress manifests because we were arguing … Someone challenged me and said, “Well, you’re not going to die from it, but are you? Because stress takes a toll.” And there have been studies that talks about the stress of being Black in America and what that means for those reasons. I mean, there was no box for me to check and say, “Hey, I’m a lawyer, please don’t draw your gun on me.” There was nothing to stop that from happening. And so, that helplessness sometimes and feeling that you don’t even have agency of your own safety if you make all the right choices and decisions, that can wear on you. So, I think being in these environments, I knew it would be time to do the show. I knew it would be time to step into maybe Act Two of me and recognizing the fullness of what I wanted to do. I don’t feel like I’ve reached my potential at all. I feel like I’m only scratching in surface. I know it sounds weird, but —
Candice Reed 00:53:52
No, it doesn’t. Stop saying that. Nothing you’ve said sounds weird. It’s inspiring. In fact, it was something that I was wondering. What is next? What do you envision or want to do next with your one big, beautiful life? You know, now that you have opened yourself up to all of the possibilities that both sides of your brain can imagine?
Juanita Ingram 00:54:19
Yes. I feel like I’m Act Two. Act One … Personally, I feel like I’m going to live to be at least like 100, 135.
Candice Reed 00:54:28
That’s my plan too.
Juanita Ingram 00:54:29
Yeah, 100, 135. And Act One is the first 45 years, and now I’m in Act Two, take me from 45 to 90. So, I have learned that I can come up with all the plans that I want to, and things will go the way that they’re meant to go. So, I don’t necessarily say, “I’m going to do X, Y, and Z,” or, “It’s going to look this way.” I have very short-term goals and my short term can be five years. To me, that’s short. And even with becoming Mrs. Universe was a 10-year journey. I went to Mrs. Universe first time 10 years ago and I didn’t even place, I won the e-vote, though, it was strange. I had 1.43 million people vote for me.
Candice Reed 00:55:08
Juanita Ingram 00:55:08
And I won the e-vote but, again, Black women, there was no Black woman even in the top 15 that year. None of us placed. It was weird. And so, to be the first … People ask me all the time to be the first Black Mrs. Universe, am I shocked by that? I consider it an honor. But having competed in the international spaces and that level, not shocked, but it is an honor. But at the same time, I feel like there were so many phenomenal Black women that came before me that were just as qualified as me. But it’s still an honor.
Juanita Ingram 00:55:41
In terms of what’s next, I am happy to say, I don’t know. And that thrills me. It doesn’t make me feel uncomfortable. It doesn’t make me feel afraid. It makes me feel excited that I don’t know. There are so many possibilities. There are so many opportunities. There’s so much I can do. I personally feel like anything I put my hand to, I can do. So right now, it’s a matter of me selecting and deciding what is it that I’m going to do because I can do so many things. I could go and work at Netflix tomorrow if I wanted to, but I don’t know if that’s where I’m best utilized. So, I’ve got feature films in the works, I’ve got different things, nonprofits that I’m still involved with. I’m still chairing the board of Dress for Success, Chattanooga and London. I’m an ambassador now here in Singapore. There are different desires and passions that I have for young women, that I’ve yet to even scratch the surface on in terms of empowering them to be at their best. But at the same time, I’m only 45. I already have this vision that things aren’t really going to start taking off until 50. For me, for women, I think in our 40s is where we start to really thrive. And then I heard —
Candice Reed 00:56:57
Juanita Ingram 00:56:58
Yeah, I heard 50 was like everything. So, I cannot wait.
Candice Reed 00:57:03
I’ll let you know. Talk to me later this year. I’ll let you know.
Juanita Ingram 00:57:07
Okay. I heard 50 was everything. And then at 50 —
Candice Reed 00:57:14
I hope so.
Juanita Ingram 00:57:18
That’s what I heard. I heard if you thought 40 was something I heard 50 was everything. So, I’m excited about that, that my kids will be out of school, they’ll be in college at that time. It’ll be a different season in my life. I’m excited about what I do between now and then, and then what lies at that point and beyond. And I’m proud to say that I don’t know. And that’s exciting.
Candice Reed 00:57:32
That is exciting. And I hope it’s not 20 years before we have another conversation because you are an inspiration, not just to young girls, but to so many people, me included. This has just been a gift to talk to you, and I appreciate your willingness to share your time and your experience, your perspective, and to be vulnerable, not just on your television show, but in the many interviews that you do, the books that you’ve written. I think it’s how we learn from each other, when we drop the walls that we have erected and that we have allowed others to erect for us, that that’s when we really start with that meaningful connection that can grow into something beautiful and powerful. And you are just an excellent example of that. So, thank you.
Juanita Ingram 00:58:32
Candice Reed 00:58:33
Juanita Ingram 00:58:34
Thank you so much. Oh, thank you for saying that. I really appreciate it and I appreciate you creating spaces like this for us to come, especially for lawyers, to come and discuss these type of topics because it affects so much of wellbeing, holistically as a person, and it starts in the mind and it starts with our own narratives in our own mind. So, thank you for creating this space so we can come and have these type of dialogues and discussions. And maybe I could be someone’s example that they add to the list when they’re making their list of why it’s okay for them to be what they are.
Candice Reed 00:59:09
Absolutely. I think you will be. Well, please come back and talk to us again about the next great thing that you do and thank you again for your time, and for you it’s have a great day. You’re in Singapore. I’m in Nashville. I mean, it’s also amazing that we can have this conversation and be on total opposite sides of the world too.
Juanita Ingram 00:59:27
Candice Reed 00:59:28
Thank you to technology. But appreciate the time, Juanita. Thank you.
Juanita Ingram 00:59:32
Thank you so much. Thank you.
Tim Haley 00:59:43
Candice, that was absolutely amazing. It was incredibly fascinating. I mean, we weren’t 10 seconds into this episode before I learned something, and now I’m just overflowing. What do you say? How do you feel?
Candice Reed 00:59:58
I know. I will tell you that because I am sitting in Nashville and Juanita is on the other side of the world in Singapore. We had this conversation when it was very late at night where I was, it was the next day where Juanita was, and I couldn’t get to sleep that night.
Tim Haley 01:00:17
Oh my gosh.
Candice Reed 01:00:18
Because my mind was just reeling after talking to her and listening to just all of the golden nuggets of information and life advice that she was throwing out. I mean, her comments about how attorneys often align their identity … or excuse me, I think identity was my word. She changed it to value, which to me was a significant difference. That we’re not just identifying as lawyers, we are attaching our value to being a lawyer. And her conversation, or her thoughts around … Well, not just her thoughts, but her experiences around that identification, that value, that wellbeing struggle when she first moved to London, and how it was a defining pivot in this incredible career and life that she’s had over the last 20 years. That was just something I couldn’t stop thinking about.
Tim Haley 01:01:23
I think that is true of a lot of people I know. Certainly there are times in my life it was true of me too, where it’s like, this is why I’m important, which of course isn’t true. I mean, it is, but it isn’t. There’s a balance there.
Candice Reed 01:01:35
That’s right. There are so many other reasons why you’re important. And again, I feel like I did okay with, “Oh, I’m no longer practicing law, and that’s okay.” but when she says something about that you attach your value to being a lawyer that, like I said, it was a big distinction for me. And I have to recommend that everyone go to Amazon Prime. Check out both the first and second seasons of The Expats International Ingrams. You will laugh, you’ll relate to Juanita, both as a working parent … it’s not only feel-good television that is entertaining, but it’s also really educational. I mean, she does a great job of sharing the spotlight or putting the spotlight on a number of expats of color and talking about their unique experiences abroad. I just think she’s putting a lot of really important content out in the world, and I’m excited to be a part of sharing her message.
Tim Haley 01:02:51
Yeah. I mean, it’s so great conversation and I need a breath. It’s going to take me a minute here.
Candice Reed 01:03:01
You need a breath and I need one of those crowns.
Tim Haley 01:03:02
Yeah, there you go.
Candice Reed 01:03:09
Well, and until the next time, you may have to listen to this one, two or three times to take it all, Tim.
Tim Haley 01:03:13
There we go. Yeah, I’m down. It was fun. So, we’ll see everybody next time. Thanks for listening.
Tim Haley 01:03:21
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