Building a Diverse and Inclusive Team | Yanika Smith-Bartley

Transcript

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 00:00

If you have a brain, you’re going to be biased. Let’s understand what these biases are and let’s figure out ways to call them out and figure out tools for mitigating those biases.

Candice Reed 00:13

This is Leveraging Latitude: Cultivating a Full Life in the Law, and where your hosts, Candice Reed-

Tim Haley 00:20

And Tim Haley.

Candice Reed 00:22

Please join us on our journey as we discover how to leverage the hard work of becoming a lawyer to achieving success and leading a rich and fulfilling life in the law.

Tim Haley 00:38

Hey, Candice, what are we going to do today?

Candice Reed 00:40

So, today we’ll be talking to Nikki Smith-Bartley. Nikki is an attorney who is presently serving as the chief diversity, equity and inclusion officer at Asurion. And under her leadership, Asurion has received a number of accolades for its diversity and inclusion efforts, including being named best employer for Diversity by Forbes Magazine for 2020. Also, Diversity Inc recognized it as a top employee resource group and gave it noteworthy recognition, 2020 best Workplaces for Women from Fortune Magazine and Great Places to Work, 2020 best Workplaces for Millennials and a 2020 top 50 best companies for Latinas to work in the US by Latina Style Inc. So, Nikki has done an impressive amount of work. Nikki and her team, I should say, have done an impressive amount of work of both recruiting diverse employees across Asurion’s many departments and also retaining those employees and promoting them through the ranks.

Candice Reed 01:49

So, Nikki is basically going to give us a crash course in diversity and inclusion, explaining both what those two terms mean, how companies including legal departments and law firms can go about working towards greater diversity among our teams and also why it’s important. So, to set the table for this conversation, I think the ABA’s recent profile of the legal profession is relevant. In that study the ABA reports that 86% of all lawyers in the United States are White, non-Hispanic White. That’s in comparison to 60% of the US population as a whole. So, just with that statistic alone, we can see that non-Hispanic Whites are overly represented in the legal profession compared to the general population. So, this is a conversation that I had with Nikki Smith-Bartley in February of 2020. It was after I heard her speak at a CLE on the same topic, and I found the examples of the work that she was doing within Asurion in terms of both recruiting and retaining diverse talent to be very helpful and informative.

Candice Reed 03:19

Often we talk about the topic of diversity inclusion in these very broad terms, and I appreciated that Nikki was giving concrete examples of things that work, strategies that bring diverse talent to the table and give them a seat at the table. And so I was very pleased when she agreed to let us re-air this conversation. I think it’s just as relevant today as it was back then, and I look forward to continuing the conversation. This really is just the very beginning, kind of diversity and inclusion 101, if you will. There’s a lot to say on this topic, but she gives us a really good starting point to begin.

Tim Haley 04:02

This is critically important. Let’s dive in and see what she says.

Candice Reed 04:13

Nikki, thank you so much for joining us to have a conversation about building a diverse and inclusive legal team. I know you do a lot of work at Asurion on this very topic, so tell us a little bit about what it is that you do at Asurion and then we’ll jump right into a deeper conversation.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 04:29

Sure. So, I lead global diversity and inclusion at Asurion, and so that means that I’m responsible from everything from creating the initiative to launching the initiative, to implementing the initiative. And there’s several components to what that entails. Would you like me to go into what that is?

Candice Reed 04:48

Sure, sure, sure.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 04:49

So, one big component is the grassroots efforts that we started with in order to roll out the diversity inclusion initiative because one of the issues that I see as someone who was tied closely to diversity and inclusion without actually leading it as an employment lawyer is that companies often jump into recruiting and they think that that’s the way to solve the diversity issue simply by just jumping into recruiting. And so when I-

Candice Reed 05:14

You mean recruiting diverse candidates?

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 05:16

Yes, recruiting diverse candidates. And so when I was asked to lead the charge for diversity and inclusion, I was adamant that that’s not where we should start because oftentimes it’s not a diversity problem, it’s an inclusion issue, and you have to fix inclusion, the inclusion issue first.

Candice Reed 05:32

So, let’s stop there for a minute and why don’t you tell us what diversity is and then also what inclusion is?

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 05:40

Yes. So, I like to use the quote that one of the more well-known diversity experts, Vernā Myers, uses, diversity is being invited to the party, inclusion is being asked to dance. And so, you’re often going have a diverse set of individuals at any organization, oftentimes without trying. And so you’ll have a mixture of gender, a mixture of ethnicities and races. Most organizations have that. The inclusion issue is often seen where how that representation breaks out within the organization. And so inclusion is ensuring that everyone has an opportunity to be recruited, to be hired, to be developed, and to succeed at the organization, to feel like they actually belong at the organization. So, diverse is simply the mixture and inclusion is all the efforts that go towards making sure that those individuals at the organization are successful.

Candice Reed 06:40

Okay. And when you talk about diversity, what does diversity mean in terms of the makeup of varied ethnicities, genders, perspectives that you just mentioned? Is there a specific percentage that you’re looking for with your programs or how do you judge whether or not a team or a company is diverse?

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 07:06

So, it really isn’t a numbers game for me. It is more of a systems issue. You have to understand that as an organization, as part of a world that has isms and institutionalized racism problems and biases, that your organization is going to be subject to that as well. So, for me, it’s not about getting to a certain percentage. It really is about looking at all the policies, the processes, the practices, the systems that you have within your organization, seeing where bias creeps into those processes, practices, systems, and figuring out ways to mitigate bias as best you can in order for individuals to succeed.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 07:51

And again, for me, success and diversity and inclusion looks like no matter what you look like, where you come from, who you love, that you have an equal opportunity to be recruited, to be hired, to be developed, and to succeed at that organization, that’s when you succeeded. It’s less about a numbers game, it’s more about a systems. And sometimes irrespective of you may have done all you can do to mitigate that bias, and you still might not have the percentage that you’re looking for. But if you have put in place systems where someone who is against diversity and inclusion gets weeded out because you put those parameters in place in order to ensure that best you can, you mitigate that, then that is success and it’s less about the number.

Candice Reed 08:46

So, I hear a lot of people, a lot of professionals, both lawyers, law firms and the companies that they work for, talk about diversity and inclusion. It seems to be a very popular topic and something that a lot of businesses and firms are striving towards for. Why is it so important?

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 09:11

It’s important because diversity drives innovation. And I’ll just talk about it from the standpoint of Asurion, right? We’re an organization that we started out as a roadside assistance company and we’ve reinvented ourselves over and over and over again until now we are actually a technology company. If you want to keep innovating, research shows that the more diverse perspectives you have, the more innovative you will be. That’s number one. Number two, when you look at our organization and you look at representation, and that’s mostly what people are looking at when they’re talking about diversity and diversity numbers. You’re looking at representation. At our organization, the representation of underrepresented minorities is heavily at the bottom of the organization.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 10:06

If those individuals cannot see people that look like them at the upper echelons of the organization, there’s a saying, you can’t be what you can’t see. So, that in and of itself is motivation for individuals at the lower ends of the organization to be able to see that representation at the upper levels of the organization as well. But you also have to understand that you need those individuals at the top levels of the organization. They need to be able to relate to the individuals that they’re leading. And so the less representation of folks that look like them at the upper levels of the organization, the less ability that they have to relate. And it actually is harder for those individuals to be able to succeed with an organization as well.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 10:55

Then you look at our customer base from a customer standpoint and a market share standpoint where we have 300 million customers, we are in 23 countries. So, in order to understand the innovation piece, to develop services and products to serve that customer base, you need your organization, not just those who are serving at the lower levels of the organization, but those who are making the decisions. They need to be able to understand what that consumer base needs. And the less diverse representation that you have throughout the organization, the less likely you’re going to be able to understand what your diverse customer base needs. And so those are several reasons why diversity is important. And I think that translates across industries and that translates across various organizations that it’s about representation of the employees, it’s about innovation, it’s about creating products and services for the customers that you serve.

Candice Reed 11:58

So, if having a diverse workforce or team drives innovation, and presumably the bottom line from, I take from what you’re saying.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 12:11

Yes.

Candice Reed 12:12

And that a lot of companies and firms say they want diverse teams. Why isn’t every company your law firm diverse? What’s the barrier to diversity?

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 12:25

Well, I think it’s hard. I think it’s hard. It takes consistent, constant hard work. I talked earlier about the isms. Those isms have been around for hundreds of years.

Candice Reed 12:37

You’re talking about racism, sexism-

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 12:38

Racism, sexism, ageism, whatever ism, throw it out there. They’ve been around for hundreds and hundreds of years. A organization, a corporation, a law firm is simply a slice of the world that we live in. No one’s going to say, “Okay, you’re president and you solve racism in these four years.” But what happens with organizations is that you appoint this chair of diversity and you think in two years this chair is going to cure racism within the organization and all the things that impact the organization as a whole. It’s hard work. It’s not going to happen overnight. It takes changing those systems. Changing those systems takes time. It takes change management, it takes people wanting to change. And so you’re not going to be able to change hearts and souls overnight. And so I think that’s why it’s hard. I think that-

Candice Reed 13:30

Nikki, how long have you been in your current role with Asurion?

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 13:34

Officially November 2017, but I did it off the side of my desk for a couple years before I actually took on the role in created the function of diversity and inclusion.

Candice Reed 13:45

Okay. So, do you remember some of the first things that you did when you were tasked or first trying to build a more inclusive team at Asurion?

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 13:54

Oh, yeah. So, I think I alluded to it earlier when I was talking about fixing inclusion. And we started with the grassroots efforts with employee resource groups because we wanted our represented employees to have a collective voice to voice barriers within the organization and be able to work with the business in order to break down those barriers. And so, one of the first things I did was create a policy to establish an employee resource group. And so there was this process that employee resource groups had to go through in order to basically apply for an employee resource group and get approved. And so we started out with our Women’s Initiative Network was the first one, Pride for the LGBT employees and allies. BEST, which stands for Black Employee Supporting Talent, and then our veteran services group. And so those were the first four that established, we’re now at 10, but those were the first four. So, that was one of the first things we did.

Candice Reed 14:49

And it’s interesting you said you ask employees to apply for this group, for the group to be created.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 14:57

Yes.

Candice Reed 14:57

So, the company didn’t say, here are the affinity groups or the resource groups that we think you should fall into?

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 15:05

No.

Candice Reed 15:05

You let them-

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 15:06

Yeah, decide where the need is.

Candice Reed 15:07

That’s interesting.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 15:08

Yeah, where the need is. And so part of the application process, you have to have at least 10 employees who want to be part of the group and a mission statement and a purpose and the structure of the employee resource group as well. And so there is a committee that approves the application, and then after two years, you have to actually file a report, each employee resource group, to show if there has been growth and whether or not your programs have aligned with the core mission of what employee resource groups are supposed to do and things of that nature. So, that’s one of the things that was-

Candice Reed 15:41

That was one of the first steps.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 15:42

Yeah, and it actually grew. It just took off.

Candice Reed 15:45

Do you have any sort of pushback from people who fall outside of those affinity groups or resource groups? Like, “Well, why do you get a special group? Why can’t I be in this group?” Or maybe they can, I don’t know. Can they?

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 16:00

Yeah, they can. So, one of the rules of the employee resource groups, it is open to everyone. And so you just have to support the mission of that employee resource group. And so every employee resource group has allies. And so allies of that employee resource group help to support the mission of that ERG. You do get often the white male who’s not a veteran to say, “Where’s my employee resource group?” And I say, “It’s corporate America. It’s called Corporate America.”

Candice Reed 16:33

Well, what is the response to when you say that? I can only imagine.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 16:39

I mean, there’s been some interesting responses. Most people are receptive to it. I mean, because we do have got the young professionals, we’ve got veteran services group, we’ve got experienced professionals. So, there’s an employee resource group for everyone. There really is. But you still get the occasional pushback on, where’s the one for me? Where’s the one for me? And the employee resource groups are really designed to impact and support those underrepresented groups and demographics. And so if you’re a White male and you’re under 40, you’re probably not-

Candice Reed 17:17

Underrepresented.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 17:18

… underrepresented. Right. So to speak.

Candice Reed 17:20

What are some other exercises or applications or programs that you have tried that you feel like have been really successful either in recruiting diverse candidates or in building this inclusive environment where everyone feels like they have a seat at the table?

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 17:37

Sure. So, one of the other things that we did at the outset was look at data, because we wanted to understand where our gaps were. One of the things that I alluded to earlier in terms folks starting with recruiting and why I feel like that’s an issue, Vernā has her saying, I have mine, which is if you start with recruiting, that’s like sending out the invitations before you even plan the party.

Candice Reed 17:59

Bad idea.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 18:00

Bad idea. And the reason why that’s bad is because oftentimes if there is an inclusion issue, which I alluded to earlier and not a diversity issue, when you start bringing in more diverse candidates, if you haven’t fixed the inclusion issue, these people here leave, these people come in, your numbers don’t change because you haven’t fixed the inclusion issue. And so you have to start with fixing inclusion. Also, the data, you have to start with the data.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 18:28

Another issue that organizations have is that they read what other organizations have done and they’re like, okay, this is best practice. And they jump in and they start doing that without really understanding what the issues are within their own organization. And so it was very necessary for us to take a look at the organization as a whole from the entire life cycle of the employee. So, everything from recruiting to promotions to conversation parity to performance ratings to attrition, the whole training programs, development programs, the whole life cycle of the employee to try to understand where the gaps are and then use that data, that set of data, to understand where you need to focus. And that’s how you create the diversity initiative. And so-

Candice Reed 19:12

So, not all programs, not all companies are going to have the same gaps in the same places. And so the same programs may not work-

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 19:19

That’s correct.

Candice Reed 19:19

… across the board.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 19:20

That’s correct. And so you don’t want to have this cookie cutter approach. And even within the organization, one of the things that was imperative is that I looked at business function by business function and level by level because I wanted to truly understand where the gaps were within the organization. And I saw that some business functions are very diverse, where others lack representation and have a lot of opportunities. And so that’s where we wanted to focus. We didn’t want to say, okay, everybody, now you need to start recruiting for more diversity now that we figure out where the gaps are, because you have to understand where the needs are. And even within those functions, just understanding from an industry standpoint, it’s going to be harder for some functions than others. It’s going to be harder for folks in technology to recruit women than it is in HR.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 20:12

And so understanding that those are the challenges that these organizations face, and it’s not going to be, like I said, a one stop shop for each business function. So, looking at the data was one thing that we did as well and just understood the gaps and then started with the business functions that had the most opportunity. The other was education. And so we started with unconscious bias education, which you hear a lot about and the-

Candice Reed 20:39

Can you explain what that is?

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 20:40

Yeah. And so unconscious bias, it is just mental shortcuts. Everybody who has a brain has bias. One bias is similarity bias that we talk about a lot. You are often going to like people who are like you. Everybody does. That does not make you a bad person.

Candice Reed 20:57

Is that why lawyers marry lawyers.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 21:02

That’s probably why lawyers marry other lawyers. But there’s similarity bias. There’s proximity bias. So, if you’re a remote employee versus somebody who works in the office, then you’re going to probably relate to the person that you’re seeing most often than the one that you see just on camera. And so just understanding that if you have a brain, you’re going to be biased. Let’s understand what these biases are and let’s figure out ways to call them out and figure out tools for mitigating those biases. I think oftentimes what happens with education and diversity initiatives is that people feel attacked. Like, oh, I am the oppressor, and it goes south, and we didn’t want to take that approach. We want to take the approach, this is all of us, all of us have biases. No matter what color you are, you are a woman or you’re a man, you are going to have biases as well. So, let’s just understand that as a foundation that we do and figure out ways to mitigate it. And so that was one of the first things that we did in terms of from an education standpoint.

Candice Reed 22:00

Well, you have an interesting program that I’d love for you to talk about where I understand you discuss hot topics, water cooler topics, that type of thing. Can you tell us more about that program?

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 22:13

Yes. So, I call it a movement. So, it’s Be Bold and the tagline is, Hot Coffee and Hotter Topics. And so we talk about everything from the Me Too movement to Colin Kaepernick and taking a knee to Living while Black and the Starbucks experience when the guys got kicked out of the Starbucks that time, the ABCs of LGBTQIA, religious inclusion. We had one on women of color. And so, one of the directives that I give is that you have to get comfortable with having uncomfortable conversations in the workplace. You have to get beyond this surface level talk because if you don’t get beyond this surface level talk, you’re not going to be able to create an inclusive environment because you’ll be talking to your close friends about it, but your coworkers won’t really understand how you feel about it. And so we created this safe space to have these conversations so we have it moderated so everyone can get appropriate air time and be able to share their perspective on whatever the topic is. But we’re not there to perform miracles or change hearts or change minds. We want folks to understand-

Candice Reed 23:27

At least not overnight.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 23:29

Not overnight. We want folks to understand that you can operate in a space of agreeing to disagree and having a different perspective, but be respectful of your coworker’s perspective on it, and they really have been transformative. There’s people who have come out of those dialogues or those meetings, those conversations rather in saying, “You know what? I never really got it, and now I get it. It’s not necessarily that my viewpoint has changed, I still believe X, Y, Z but now I understand this perspective that I didn’t understand before because I never had a conversation with anyone to really understand that particular perspective.” So, they really have been transformative.

Candice Reed 24:12

You mentioned that it’s a safe space where people go beyond being polite and go deeper than the surface level conversations that most of us have around uncomfortable topics, at least at work.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 24:25

That’s right.

Candice Reed 24:25

How do you create that safe space?

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 24:28

We start out with just some simple facts and videos that we think everybody can relate to. And then we also have rules. We have ground rules on how to operate in that safe space, how to give other people air time, how to agree to disagree when you need to, how when you go back from the workplace, you leave that conversation that don’t attribute statements to anyone. You can say, we had these conversations, but don’t say Candice said it necessarily. One of the ground rules is that we may go hard against institutions, but we will not attack each other in this space. So, I think the ground rules help to set that tone. There’s a moderator at the table, because we break out into groups, and so there’s about five to eight people. Everyone has a table moderator, there’s a timer.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 25:11

And so that moderator is keeping time to make sure that you get to talk your two minutes, you do not interrupt, you put your cell phones away, and then the next person gets to talk for their two minutes. And then at the end there is this readout. But I think that helps to set the tone in that everybody gets air time and you’re not allowed to argue with the person. You just have to listen, which is hard for a lot of us to just listen, but when you’re forced to just listen, you do get to hear those perspectives without feeling like you’ve got to rebut what someone’s saying. And I think those ground rules in that format helps to create that safe space.

Candice Reed 25:47

How do people take part in the Be Bold conversation?

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 25:52

So, we have, they’re in our learning system where you can sign up just like you sign up-

Candice Reed 25:58

Okay, so they’re voluntary?

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 25:59

Yeah. Yeah, they’re voluntary. So, yeah, you can sign up to be a part of them. And that’s something we’re actually trying to change because we’re like, I think folks who are signing up to have those conversations are probably predisposed to-

Candice Reed 26:11

Are they the same people? You notice the same people?

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 26:14

No, it’s a lot of different people. But we have created these toolkits now where you can have one at your office or one for your team. You’ll partner with someone on my team and they’ll tell you sort of do the train the trainer, but we want to have some of those conversations with folks who are not necessarily signing up for them, but where there are going to be more varying perspectives than there are when folks are volunteering to have a conversation. And so that’s one of the initiatives for 2020 where we’re expanding the conversation, so to speak.

Candice Reed 26:51

Well, I think that sounds like a fabulous program. I would love to be a part of some of those conversations.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 26:57

Well, maybe we’ll invite you in one time-

Candice Reed 27:00

I’d love that. I’d love that. You’ve obviously done a lot of really good and important work at Asurion, and you’ve also had the benefit of seeing several different sectors, both business, sales, financial, IT. I’m curious where you think legal falls, not necessarily the Asurion legal department, but legal in general, how are law firms doing? How are corporate legal departments doing? How are law schools doing in terms of getting it right when it comes to diversity and inclusion?

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 27:36

I think law firms and the legal industry, it still has a long way to go. I think we still have a long way to go. I think it’s probably all the things that I’ve named in terms of … I think we try, law firms do have the initiative, I think they do the recruiting piece level. I think the inclusion piece is where more work needs to be done. And so I think that’s why the numbers are not changing because I think it’s still the men going on golf outings and the men that are going on the golf outings with them are the ones that are getting the work and getting the hours.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 28:12

I think until we do more work around that, creating that inclusive environment within the law firm, I think we’re still going to have some issues. I also think it has to do with just the format of law firms and just the billable hour. I think Gen Z, this generation that doesn’t like to be put in a box and they’re defined by not being defined. And so until you loosen up this structure, then it’s not going to be an environment that’s conducive to keep this generation. And so I think we need to rethink, I’m sorry, the whole billable hour and format and work and FaceTime and all the different things that you see other corporations doing. I think the law firm needs to infuse some of that.

Candice Reed 29:02

This might be an unfair question, but what would you tell firms to do? What’s the best first step advice that you could give them? Try this tomorrow, next week, right now, something that they can do to get started on that path?

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 29:20

Yeah. I think, again, I’m going to always start with inclusion. So, I think the underrepresented employees that you have at the law firm, the women at the law firm, I think there needs to be conversation with them in a safe space to say, what are we doing wrong? How can we make this better? What are we doing right? Do you feel like this is inclusive? I think once they open the door for those authentic conversations and that authentic feedback, and they really listen to what these individuals are saying at the organization, I think if they listen and they implement, then I think that will start to shift things. But if they’re not having those conversations and I don’t believe they are, then I don’t think that they’re going to fix the inclusion issue.

Candice Reed 30:06

That’s interesting. So, you’re collecting the data that you mentioned earlier, and you’re also having these open, honest conversations that I do think are really difficult. I mean, that’s one thing I think you have mentioned and that many people would be wise to recognize, is that this is hard and-

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 30:25

Oh, it is hard.

Candice Reed 30:26

… and you have to be intentional about how you approach it and how you try to do better, like with most things.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 30:32

That’s right.

Candice Reed 30:34

Well, thank you so much-

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 30:35

You’re welcome.

Candice Reed 30:35

… for the time-

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 30:35

Thank you for having me.

Candice Reed 30:37

… and for your advice and expertise, it has just been really exciting to watch all of the wonderful work that you’re doing at Asurion.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 30:43

Can I tell you one more thing that we’re doing?

Candice Reed 30:45

Absolutely.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 30:47

Okay. So, in addition to the unconscious bias, so that was the foundation. So, this year we are launching our Inclusive Leadership Certification Program, and so this is where we actually educate leaders on what it means to lead inclusively. So, unconscious bias is that first step, that primer, right? That foundation. But now we want to show leaders what it means to be inclusive, how you lead inclusively. And so this is going to be four module series, and you’ll get, as you go through each module, at the end of the fourth module, you’ll get certified to be an inclusive leader. I’m really excited about this launching this year. I just wanted to add that too, because I think unconscious bias is the first step, but I think giving leaders the tools, what they need to actually lead inclusively is the next step. And so I think that’s an important part of it.

Candice Reed 31:39

I know that you were the person who really broke down that wall for me in terms of the differences between diversity and diversity being recruiting issues and inclusion being really where you need to start. That it’s not what so many of us, or what I originally thought, which is with the recruiting, but to start with building that inclusive environment first. So, thank you for that.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 32:03

You’re welcome. You’re welcome.

Candice Reed 32:05

That was an aha moment for me, so I appreciate that.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 32:07

No problem.

Candice Reed 32:08

Thank you, Nikki.

Yanika “Nikki” Smith-Bartley 32:09

Thank you for having me.

Tim Haley 32:18

Wow, Candice, that was a great conversation. There’s so many pieces there, so many things to think about. So many issues for the profession moving forward. I thought it was great. Great job.

Candice Reed 32:28

Well, I think that Nikki is obviously someone who is very close to this issue. She has a lot of expertise to share, and I think that this is only the beginning of the conversation, at least here on our podcast, I hope that we can continue to discuss this topic in future episodes because I feel like there’s a lot more to get to.

Tim Haley 32:52

Absolutely. And I look forward to this conversation continuing.

Candice Reed 32:56

Okay, Tim. Well, we will wrap it up for this part of the conversation and look forward to continuing the dialogue in future episodes.

Tim Haley 33:07

Yes, much more to come.

Candice Reed 33:09

That’s right.

Tim Haley 33:10

Talk to you later, Candice, and see everybody later. Thank you for joining us today. If you found this content valuable, please tell a friend or colleague about us. Also, if you can, please give us a rating and a short review on your podcast listening platform. The more ratings and reviews we have, the more people will find us. If you have a question, reach out to us at latitudelegal.com.