Navigating Today's Hot Legal Market | Katie Bennett & Emily Romberg

Transcript

Katie Bennett 00:00

There’s usually kind of an aha moment with candidates when they hear about what opportunities are exactly out there with regard to contract engagement, and then it’s not just document review.

Candice Reed 00:13

This is Leveraging Latitude: Cultivating A Full Life In The Law, and we’re your hosts, Candice Reed-

Tim Haley 00:20

And Tim Haley.

Candice Reed 00:21

Please join us on our journey as we discover how to leverage the hard work of becoming a lawyer to achieving success, and leading a rich and fulfilling life in the law. Hey, everybody. Hi, Tim, how are you doing today?

Tim Haley 00:41

Hey, Candice, how are you?

Candice Reed 00:42

I’m doing great. Have you gotten your vaccine shot?

Tim Haley 00:47

I am. I’m completely clear, so they say. I’m free.

Candice Reed 00:51

You’re fully vaxxed, huh?

Tim Haley 00:53

Yeah, it’s a brave new world out there. I still don’t know the etiquette, like you go out and, of course, I wear my mask because we have to where I live, but outside of that it’s just like … Are we allowed to see people again or not? It’s always really uncomfortable, like reaching out and saying, “Hey, are you going out now?” “I’m going out now.”

Candice Reed 01:10

Yeah. Right. Well, I know here in Tennessee the temperature is a little different than it is for you there in Indiana, but everyone seems to have spring fever, so there are lots of people getting out and congregating, and socializing, kind of catching up on the last 12 months. We’re seeing the job market take a similar turn, where lots of employers halted their hiring when the pandemic started in March of last year, and the opportunities recently have just exploded, and we are seeing a white-hot job market now.

Tim Haley 01:57

Yeah, it seems like every day somebody’s looking for a lawyer, somebody needs help immediately. It’s happening here too. I think it’s happening everywhere.

Candice Reed 02:03

Yeah. Do you remember how you found your first legal job?

Tim Haley 02:09

Yes. Yes, I do. It was … It’s a great question.

Candice Reed 02:12

Way, way back in the day.

Tim Haley 02:15

When I was in law school, I was also a high school swim coach. I did that on the side just because I knew a little bit. I swam in college, so I knew a little bit about it. One of the parents of one of my swimmers was a lawyer in a little town in Bedford, Indiana, about 30 minutes south of Bloomington, and he needed a law clerk, and so I came down 5, 6, 10 hours a week, whatever they had, and he put me to work. He sent me to the plat room, and he sent me to the recorder’s office, and the auditor’s office, and he sent me to the law library so I could draft first draft of motions and briefs. Yeah, that’s how I got started. It was totally coincidental and by chance. How about you?

Candice Reed 02:53

And by someone you knew. Yeah. I’ve made several job changes throughout my 20 plus years in the law, and with every one I can say that it was due to someone I knew or a relationship, and I think that that’s the way many of us found our jobs, if not the first job, which I picked up through on-campus interviewing when I was a second and third year law school student. But the subsequent changes that I made were all because of someone I knew, where a client was pulling me in-house, or a friend knew that her employer was hiring and reached out to me and asked me if I would be interested. But what we’re seeing now is really a changing job market, people are not only moving because of the pull of a friend, or because of a connection or a relationship. There are a multitude of online job boards, as you know. There are companies who specialize in recruiting, and moving lawyers from one firm to the next, or pulling them in-house.

Candice Reed 04:07

There are also a number of different kinds of jobs that I didn’t, if they were there 20 years ago or 15 years ago when I was looking, I certainly didn’t know about them. So we are going to be talking to a couple of Latitude’s directors of legal recruiting and placement today, Katie Bennett and Emily Romberg. Katie’s in Nashville, Emily’s based in Miami, and they’re going to discuss this crazy new world, brave new world that’s out there in terms of the legal market, and the new opportunities that we’re seeing, daily tips for working with a recruiter, both what to do, what not to do. Hopefully we can get them to talk about their pet peeves because I know they have a few, and I do too, just to throw a couple of-

Tim Haley 04:56

I mean, you’re not human if you don’t. We all do. It’s good.

Candice Reed 05:00

Yeah. Yeah. I’m a person too, I respond to kindness and just general manners positively as well. I think some candidates forget that I’m not a robot just passively receiving their email messages, but at any rate, Katie and Emily will be talking to us today about this white-hot market that we’re in, and tips for making a change, if that’s something that you’re looking to do. Today, I’m speaking with Katie Bennett and Emily Romberg, who both serve as directors of legal recruiting and placement at Latitude. Katie is in Nashville, and Emily is in Miami. Thank you both for joining us today.

Katie Bennett 05:52

Thank you for having us.

Emily Romberg 05:54

Thank you for having us, Candice.

Candice Reed 05:56

Well, it’s a pleasure. Part of what I enjoy most about my job is that I get to work with you and our other colleagues every day, so I appreciate you choosing to work with Latitude. Let me introduce the two of you to our audience. Katie, who as I mentioned, is based in Nashville, previously served as assistant general counsel at UBS, and prior to moving in-house, worked at the Kentucky law firm of Reynolds, Johnston, and Hinton doing real estate and business law. She’s a graduate of the University of Louisville Brandeis School of Law and Western Kentucky University. So Katie, thank you for being here today. Emily is a graduate of the University of Miami School of Law, and also attended the University of Miami for undergrad. She has practiced commercial real estate at a number of firms prior to joining Latitude, including Avila Rodriguez Hernandez Mena & Feri, Akerman, and Bilzin Sumberg. So Emily, thank you very much for joining us today too. Now, what we’re going to talk about is the current legal market. Would one of you please describe what you’re seeing in the legal market right now in terms of activity?

Katie Bennett 07:26

Sure. So, basically the market’s super hot right now. Last year, after COVID, we saw a lot of hiring freezes. We saw both on the firm side and in-house, where a lot of companies paused orders or decided to take a step back and see how things were going to go following the pandemic. Everything has completely opened up since then. We saw that starting early this year, and it’s just a really, really, really busy market across the board essentially.

Candice Reed 07:54

Would you say that it has the legal market or the job market within the legal industry has returned to pre-pandemic normals, or is this something different than even what we saw before COVID?

Katie Bennett 08:06

I would say in many ways it’s returned to pre-pandemic levels, but I would say it’s even busier than it was pre-pandemic. We’re seeing, especially on the law firm side, bonuses and raises at the associate level that I don’t think we were even seeing pre-pandemic. So in many ways it’s even busier than it was a year and a half ago.

Candice Reed 08:27

So Emily, you are based in Miami, and I know that we all work with clients throughout the country. Are you seeing the same level of activity there as Katie might be seeing in Nashville and the surrounding areas?

Emily Romberg 08:42

Yes. Absolutely, Candice. We have seen a huge increase in requests. Firms are getting busy in our area in different practice areas, and we’re seeing this increase not just in our market, but across the country.

Candice Reed 08:57

You mentioned certain practice areas. What practice areas are hot right now or where do you see the most activity?

Emily Romberg 09:05

We are seeing the most activity in corporate, litigation, and real estate.

Candice Reed 09:12

Interesting. Katie, what are you seeing in regard to the more popular practice areas or where hires are being made right now?

Katie Bennett 09:23

I would definitely say corporate and commercial contracts roles. So a lot of corporate roles within law firms, that seems to be a really, really hot area right now, and that extends to permanent positions, all the way into contract engagements. Then on the in-house side, they’re also looking for corporate people, but attorneys that have a lot of commercial contracts experience, those tend to be roles that are very popular right now.

Candice Reed 09:48

So are both law firms and corporate legal departments hiring?

Katie Bennett 09:52

Yes, definitely. We’re seeing an uptick on both sides of the spectrum right now.

Candice Reed 09:57

What experience levels are in most demand? Are these jobs primarily entry-level jobs? Mid-career jobs? Partner-level positions? Who is in high demand?

Katie Bennett 10:12

I would say it’s mostly the three to seven-year attorney range, that’s definitely the sweet spot for the majority of these roles. Although I would say even more experienced attorneys, there’s definitely demand for them as well.

Emily Romberg 10:25

Candice, I would say in our market it’s definitely the mid to senior level candidates. What we’ve seen from our clients is that they’re just very, very busy and they want to be able to plug someone in that can hit the ground running, and require little training and supervision.

Candice Reed 10:41

That makes sense. So where are the jobs right now? You mentioned that both law firms and corporate legal departments are busier even in comparison to how busy they were pre-pandemic, so are these jobs primarily focused in the larger cities, or are employers still allowing for some level of remote work where you may see attorneys spread out throughout the country?

Emily Romberg 11:15

We are seeing there are so many remote opportunities still available here in Miami and across other markets, mostly because firms coming out of COVID have become aware that they can have qualified candidates come in and perform these jobs remotely, they don’t necessarily have to be onsite in an office. We’re also seeing … We just had an example where a firm that did not have an office in Miami, did hire a Miami candidate to work remotely for them from here, they have an attorney based in Miami working remotely, and another in Tampa working remotely as well.

Candice Reed 11:56

Yeah, I’ve said before that this trend is one of the silver linings of the pandemic. I know for many years, prior to COVID, it was a real struggle to convince law firms in particular, but also some corporate legal departments, to allow attorneys, paralegals, compliance professionals to work outside of the office even one or two days a week. Obviously, we all had this hard pivot this time last year, where we were forced to work at home, and over the course of the year, I feel like we made it work, that we now recognize that we can work from home. We’ve invested, many firms, and other employers have invested in the technology to allow attorneys, and other employees to work from home. I don’t know about everybody else, but I kind of like it. I’m not anxious to jump back into an office five days a week.

Candice Reed 13:10

So I think many employers, law firms, are now seeing remote work as an option, and that also expands the pool of candidates that they can consider for these jobs because they’re no longer looking for someone to sit right next to them. The best candidate may be out of state. Katie, is this pie in the sky optimism, or do you think this is a trend that’s going to stay around even after everyone’s vaccinated and we could return to the office?

Katie Bennett 13:46

I think it’s something that’s definitely going to stick around. I think we’ve really seen just a shift in the mentality of whether or not people can work a 100% remote. I will say on the permanent side, we’ve still seen somewhat of a preference for someone being local. They may not be going into the office five days a week, but it may be a day or two. There’s still some level of face time that employers are looking for once they return to the office. On the contracts side, it is just completely changed. If I were talking to a candidate two years ago, we had some people working remotely, but I would still say the large majority of our contract attorneys were going on site every day. What I’m seeing now is that’s completely gone out the window, and on the contract engagement side, firms and in-house legal departments are completely comfortable now after the last year of having someone working a 100% remote.

Katie Bennett 14:40

I think for candidates who have really, really loved working from home the last year, and they’re, in some cases, being faced with, “Do I want to go back to an office?,” contract engagements offer them to keep that flexibility that they’ve really learned to love over the last year.

Candice Reed 14:56

Yeah. This may be the topic that a lot of listeners perk up when they hear, but I think the news is out that this is a hot market that candidates, attorneys, paralegals, legal operations professionals, compliance professionals, that anyone touching the legal industry right now probably has some leverage in both salary negotiations, as well as the intangible benefits like working remotely, working from home, et cetera. So let’s talk about both what you’re seeing in terms of salary, and also those benefits, and what attorneys can expect if they’re starting a job search right now. Are the salaries and bonuses really as high as what we might be reading about?

Katie Bennett 15:58

On the firm side, yes. I mean, we’ve definitely seen increase in salaries for associates, both salary compensation, as well as bonuses. There’s a lot of increases going on within the associate pool.

Candice Reed 16:12

Is that across the board or are you just seeing that for particular practice areas, like the corporate and securities associates that you mentioned earlier?

Katie Bennett 16:20

No, I think it’s pretty across the board, at least within the firm, the firm side of things. I haven’t seen it happen as much on the in-house side yet. It still remains to be seen whether or not it will filter over to the in-house roles in the coming years. Right now, I think if you’re an associate at a large law firm, you’re probably looking at taking some sort of pay cut if you’re moving in-house, especially with the increases that we’re seeing in the market.

Candice Reed 16:45

Yeah. My sense is that corporate legal departments have generally banked on the perception that moving from a law firm, particularly a large law firm, to an in-house role means that one of the intangible benefits that an attorney would receive or might receive is this work-life balance. Now, I don’t think that’s always true. I mean, we’re seeing lots of in-house lawyers working similar hours to what they might’ve worked at a law firm. I think it’s if you are trading in a lot of money with the expectation of getting that work-life balance, I know I always caution candidates to really dive into that topic with the potential employer, or with other attorneys who work within that legal department, to see if it is in fact the case. Because I know many in-house lawyers who are working 50, 60, 70 hours a week just like many of their law firm counterparts.

Katie Bennett 17:53

Completely. I think that’s all a 100% spot on, and especially since everyone did shift remotely. I think there’s a level of, especially on the in-house side where people are still plugged in a lot, so I think that is a 100% accurate with what I’ve seen, and in-house, the hours and the work-life balance, it really varies from legal department to legal department.

Candice Reed 18:17

Absolutely. I should go back and check myself with one thing I just said about asking about work-life balance. If you’re interviewing for an in-house job, that’s probably not the question you want to lead with, right? Even though I do think it’s important, especially if it is especially important to you it is something that you should ask about, and not just assume that an in-house position will provide you with that benefit. But we all know that there’s kind of an order of things when it comes to interviewing, so I don’t want to set anybody up for a bad interview by telling them to ask about how much time off they get as soon as they introduce themselves. Anyway, let’s stay on this topic of compensation here for just a minute, because I do want to give listeners some indication of just how hot this market is right now.

Candice Reed 19:11

So Katie, you mentioned that in-house legal departments, those salaries have remained somewhat stagnant over the last couple of years, or at least have increased, as you might expect, based on inflation or cost of living. What are you seeing with some of the larger firms across the country right now?

Katie Bennett 19:33

Firm compensation has definitely increased across the board, especially in the last couple of months. Since we came out of the COVID shutdown, I guess I would say, we’re increasingly seeing large bonuses, and also sometimes bonuses to move from firm to firm. So definitely I would say compensation is increasing across the board on the firm side.

Candice Reed 19:56

Yeah, and in some cases these are six-figure bonuses, right?

Katie Bennett 20:00

Exactly.

Candice Reed 20:00

You recently talked to somebody who said he’d been given what? Was it a $100,000 to stick around another year or something like that?

Katie Bennett 20:10

Definitely I was told six-figure. So yeah, we’re seeing things that I have never seen in the market with regard to retaining associates or also pulling them to new firms.

Emily Romberg 20:21

Adding to that, Candice and Katie, I mean I have to add that I think that this is also being driven by the need to do whatever it takes to retain good associates at law firms, or to attract new and good quality associates, and attorneys in general, especially after COVID, where so many people in certain markets, primarily New York, for example, were reassessing their life situation, and seeking to leave to other markets to seek out a better quality of life. I think that from that perspective also, the law firms especially have been pressured into providing or trying to attract good quality staff by providing these large bonuses, large salaries.

Candice Reed 21:12

Yeah. I think we all probably had a little more time over the last year to do some soul-searching, or assess and then reassess our priorities in both our personal and professional goals. I’ve seen a number of articles recently discussing this shift, this mindset shift among many professionals who are prioritizing a better quality of life, more flex time, time with the family, and time to coach little league, or be the Girl Scout leader, or PTA president, or simply to engage in hobbies that we reconnected with over the last year during our time at home, during the pandemic. So what are some of the opportunities out there for people who may decide, “You know what? I don’t want to work as much now as I might’ve been working before the pandemic,” or for many parents, for example, “I can’t work as much now as I did before the pandemic?” Emily, what are the options?

Emily Romberg 22:46

Well, I think that’s where engagement opportunities would shine for these types of candidates. Engagements offer the flexibility to set your own hours, set your own schedule where that might not have been available to a lot of attorneys before pre-pandemic. I think one thing that attorneys and paralegals alike might not understand is that, about contract or engagement work, is that you can get very interesting work, high-end sophisticated work doing these types of projects, where they might have thought that this was something that they could only do on a permanent basis in a regular full-time position. I think that post-pandemic, something to take away is that this is an option, a fantastic option for those seeking more flexibility in their life and their schedules.

Candice Reed 23:48

Katie, you’ve worked with a number of lawyers who have chosen this route over the last few years. Who would you say is the stereotypical contract attorney? Or maybe another way to ask the same question is, why would someone choose this way of practicing? Other than what Emily just mentioned in terms of the opportunity to have a more flexible schedule, but who’s doing this kind of work?

Katie Bennett 24:21

It’s often very experienced attorneys with great resumes who’ve just chosen to practice in a different way, so they may not want a permanent full-time job. I often say that a lot of times the contract engagements that we have attorneys working on that have gone on the longest, sometimes two, three years, are often have gone on that long because both sides are getting something that they couldn’t get out of a permanent position. What I mean by that is on the attorney side, you may have an attorney who has a great skillset, but maybe they want to work 32 hours a week and not 50.

Candice Reed 24:54

So like four days a week instead of five.

Katie Bennett 24:57

Exactly. So they’re looking for somewhat of maybe a slightly reduced schedule from full-time. Then we have clients who come to us who they may not have FTE approval to add another attorney to their legal department, but if they can get an outstanding contract attorney for 32 hours a week, it’s a huge help to the rest of their legal department. Oftentimes contract engagements, while people may think they’re more temporary in nature, they often end up being engagements that go on two and three years. I really think that it’s essentially just a different way to practice, and you’re still doing very sophisticated high-end work, but just on a schedule that’s more manageable for whatever the attorney may be looking for at that point in their life.

Candice Reed 25:41

What’s the pay like for contract work for attorneys these days?

Katie Bennett 25:46

It’s great really. I mean, oftentimes they’re being compensated at a very similar level, sometimes even more than what they might be making in a permanent full-time position. These positions come with benefits. It’s truly an all-encompassing package that they get.

Candice Reed 26:03

So what you’re talking about is a little different than what many people might think of as document review, where you have younger attorneys or lesser experienced attorneys reviewing electronic discovery or conducting due diligence. This seems to be work at a higher level, that also then requires a higher level of experience as well.

Katie Bennett 26:34

Absolutely, Candice. Oftentimes, as a recruiter, when I’m working with a candidate who may be feeling burn out, tired of the billable hour, tired of working to the level that they may be as an associate, and they’re looking for something different, I think they’re oftentimes initially looking for in-house roles. I’m usually explaining to them what contract engagements, what that means, because a lot of times they have in their head that they’re just thinking about e-discovery document review, and really the contract opportunities are much more than that, so being able to explain that. There’s usually kind of an aha moment with candidates when they hear about what opportunities are exactly out there with regard to contract engagements, and then it’s not just document review.

Candice Reed 27:21

So for legal professionals who may be curious about this hot market, or some of the new opportunities that are out there, what would you suggest they do to start a job search, or to learn more about the market where they live, or the opportunities that are available where they are?

Katie Bennett 27:49

I would say call me. Call a recruiter. If you’re in Miami, call Emily. Call the recruiter that knows the area, knows the local market, and honestly, who can really listen to you, listen to your experience, listen to what you are looking for long-term, and can kind of help guide you through what options may be out there in order for you to meet the goals that you’re looking for as a candidate.

Candice Reed 28:15

Emily, I suspect that there are a number of attorneys who have never actually looked for a job. Either they’re with the same law firm that they started with right out of law school, or perhaps like me, transitioned in-house because of a client relationship, not necessarily because they saw a posting on an online job board. So what is your advice for those people who may be sitting in the job that they started 15 years ago, or who may be in-house, wondering if there’s an opportunity to advance by moving into a higher level position with another company? What do they do in terms of first steps? Other than call you or Katie, which I highly recommend. I think that’s an excellent first step too, but what is the process once they do reach out to you? What are you going to do or what are they going to be asked to do as part of the process of finding a new job, right now?

Emily Romberg 29:23

As Katie mentioned, I think it’s important to align yourself with a recruiter that you trust, and that understands you to help guide you through this process. I mean, the recruiter will know the market, know what opportunities are available that would be a good fit, and help guide you in the right direction, aside from that assistance with your resume. Job searches today are not what they were 15 years ago, and I think that there are a number of things that candidates can do to help market themselves a little bit better, whether that’s tweaking their resume. The slightest little thing in their description of their experience level, I think that those things that a recruiter can assist with will help and make a huge difference in their job search.

Candice Reed 30:17

Yeah. So I know, I mean, obviously, I’m biased, and I don’t necessarily think that all recruiters are the same. There are different types of recruiters who are doing different types of placements, and my suggestion to add to what you and Katie have said, is to identify someone who is going to look beyond the one job that you may be interested in. Because in many cases, there are a number of jobs that never get posted, or by the time you see a job posting, the process may already be several weeks down the road. So even though you’re seeing a job posting, it may have been up for four or five weeks, and the employer has already narrowed the pool of candidates to two or three people, and is likely to hire one of them, and so submitting a resume to a post like that can sometimes be pretty ineffective. So working with someone who is going to know not just about that particular opportunity, but about several other, and future opportunities is always helpful.

Candice Reed 31:42

I remember being coached or told in law school, or maybe even undergrad, that what I should do if I was looking for a new job, especially if I was looking for a new job in a new market, was to find out who the college’s alumni were in that particular area, and call all of them and ask them for coffee. Is that an effective means of networking or finding a new job in your opinion?

Emily Romberg 32:17

To a certain extent, Candice. I think networking is very important. I think maintaining certain relationships with attorneys that you’ve worked with in the past, that certainly assists in any job search. I think aligning yourself however with a recruiter that is familiar with market, who has worked in the market. Here at Latitude, the recruiters are all former attorneys. I worked in South Florida legal field for about 15 years prior to joining Latitude, and I think that that would help in the sense that, like you alluded to, knowing about opportunities that might not yet be available on Indeed, or other job search websites. I think that that’s really important in terms of networking and helping get the word out, “This is what I’m looking for. How can you help me? How can I help myself?” Et cetera.

Candice Reed 33:23

Yeah, I mean, looking for a job can sometimes be a second job. It’s one of those things that you should outsource if you can, just like cleaning your own house or cooking your own meals. Why not work with someone who’s going to be looking for opportunities while you are focusing on the current job that you have?

Emily Romberg 33:45

Absolutely.

Candice Reed 33:47

So we’ve talked primarily about traditional legal jobs in both traditional and non-traditional ways, but the two of you are former practicing lawyers doing something other than practicing law right now. So I’m curious how you got into legal recruiting, and what you like most about your job now. Katie, let’s start with you.

Katie Bennett 34:16

Yeah. So I started out in private practice, moved in-house, and then came to recruiting. I guess the common theme that I’ve always liked in every position was interacting with people, getting to know people, that’s been my favorite part of any job I’ve had. So recruiting, in some ways, although I don’t think … If you had told me when I was leaving law school that I was going to go into legal recruiting, I don’t know that I would’ve said, “Oh, yeah, that’s what I’m going to do.” But when I look back, it seems like it was kind of a natural progression because it really … I’m allowed to focus on the things that I enjoy most, which is getting to know people and helping people, which I feel like is a huge part of my day-to-day in my recruiting role. I also think that all of my experience, both in a law firm and in-house, help me every day in understanding what candidates are going through, and also understanding what’s going to be a good fit for both the candidate and a client with regard to an open opportunity.

Candice Reed 35:13

Emily, what about you?

Emily Romberg 35:15

Well, I would say I would have to agree with Katie, in the sense that when I first graduated from law school, if you would’ve asked me if I wanted to go into legal recruiting, that’s something that was definitely not in my vision at that point. I practiced, as I mentioned earlier, for about 15 years, mostly big law background on my end. There came a time though that I knew that it was time for a change. This opportunity presented itself, and I really researched the position. I really thought long and hard about it, and I’m very happy that I made the change. What I like most about my position now is not only that I get to interact with so many different types of people, I like the challenge of being able to match a candidate with that right, perfect job.

Emily Romberg 36:09

I don’t want to use the analogy of a game, but it’s almost like a puzzle. You have this fantastic qualified candidate, good person, and it’s really fun for me, the challenge of finding the right position for them, and the satisfaction at the end of it when I get to hear the feedback from that candidate, how happy they are with their new position, and how well they’re doing. For me, that’s the best part.

Candice Reed 36:39

Yeah. I’ll chime in on that too, Emily, because I have so many stories or memories of candidates, attorneys who have followed up with me, sometimes even years later to say something like, “I didn’t even know this position or this job was out there, but it has been perfect.” One of my nicest memories is that when I was first starting in this business years ago. I first started doing legal recruiting in 2005, so I’ve been at it now for about 16 years, if you don’t count the time that I was back in-house for a few years, but there was an attorney who was in a good job, but was struggling to find or to connect with the meaning in her job. Like many of us, she was working at a large firm, and then I think went in-house at kind of a entry-level position, and was really just looking for something, not necessarily that would pay more, but that she felt a stronger pull towards. So I helped place her in an assistant general counsel role.

Candice Reed 38:01

I think she had told me at the time that ultimately her goal was to be the leader of a legal department, where she was managing a team of attorneys, and working closely with the business to move it forward, towards its goals. So keeping that in mind, we moved her to a position that was more elevated than what the position she had currently been in. She was very happy, and she was very appreciative, and said thank you, and that kind of started a relationship for us. Several years later, probably six or seven years later, one day out of the blue, I got an email from her saying, “You probably don’t remember, but seven years ago you placed me in this position, and today is the first day that I’m starting as the chief legal officer of the legal department, and you helped me achieve my ultimate professional goal by putting me in a job that led to this day, and I just wanted to thank you.” I mean, even thinking about it now, it almost brings me to tears to recognize just how meaningful and powerful one job can be.

Candice Reed 39:21

We have similar stories where people are placed into unique contract engagements that allow them time to take care of little ones, or ailing parents, or even just engage in hobbies that they may be interested in doing. You can imagine we have lots of musicians, lots of musician attorneys here in Nashville, working in a contract engagement allows them the opportunity to pursue their dreams, and that’s powerful, and we get to be a part of that which is great. Final question. For someone who may be listening to this conversation and thinking, “This all sounds great, but I don’t know, I’m scared to make the jump, or I don’t think I can do it.” We all know that all of us lawyers are somewhat risk-averse and reluctant to change. What would you say to encourage someone to take the first step, or to make that jump into a position, a new position that they might enjoy more?

Katie Bennett 40:29

I would say go ahead and reach out to a recruiter. That would be the first step. I think that’s really where you can kind of explore maybe what you like about your current role, maybe what you don’t like, and also determine what that means for you going forward. What are your goals in five years? What are your goals in 10 years, and how do you get there? Then also, realizing that maybe the goals you had three years ago, maybe aren’t the goals you have today, and that evolves over time. Kind of, in some ways going back to your last question, something that I really enjoy in my current role, is that I feel like I’m able to work with candidates through every stage of their career. I have candidates that sometimes I’ll work with, who will tell me, who have told me two years ago, “Look, I’m only looking for permanent positions.” We talk about contract engagements and what all is out there. They may only be interested in in-house at that time. I’ve had them then come back to me two years later, maybe when circumstances have changed.

Katie Bennett 41:28

For example, when COVID hit, I think there were a lot of people who were kind of reassessing maybe what their lifestyle consists of, and also what their goals are. Maybe two years ago they only wanted a permanent position, but maybe today they are more interested in that contract engagement that allows them the flexibility that they’ve realized that they need today. So I really enjoy that I can work with a candidate through the life cycle not only of recruiting for one position, but also just the life cycle of their own career, and I’m able to offer them different opportunities based on where they are then, and what they’re needing, and align that with the goals that they have long-term.

Candice Reed 42:09

So Emily, you mentioned that you practice law at a couple of large firms for about 15 years, so you have personal experience taking this leap that I’m talking about. What’s your advice to people who may be standing on the precipice of change, but feeling a little scared or reluctant to jump?

Emily Romberg 42:33

Candice, I would say that it’s okay to go outside your comfort zone. It’s okay to take that risk. If you don’t try, you’ll never know. I was basically doing the same job for almost 15 years, and I enjoyed my work. I enjoyed the other attorneys that I worked with. It was satisfying work to me, but I always felt there was something else that I could be doing that would make me even happier. I sat there for 15 years, and so it was a difficult decision to make, until … I think it was a combination of factors, the right opportunity just happened to present itself, coupled with the fact that I had been thinking about this for a long time. It was almost like the stars aligned, and I just decided to take the leap of faith. I knew that I could always go back to the practice of law if I really wanted to, but I needed to take this leap of faith and just see what it was like. I felt in order to grow I needed to make that change.

Candice Reed 43:44

Great advice. Thank you both so much for doing the work that you do, and for caring about all of the many attorneys and paralegals that you speak to and work with every day. As I said at the beginning, I feel very fortunate to work with you, and I think that most of them would say they’re also very fortunate to have such fierce and caring advocates who support their career goals, and help lead them through this process that sometimes can be a little scary, but ultimately can be really rewarding. So thank you both for your time today, and get ready, I think you’re going to get lots of phone calls after this conversation. You asked for it. Just remember, you asked for it. Thank you both very much.

Katie Bennett 44:38

Thanks, Candice.

Emily Romberg 44:39

Thank you so much.

Tim Haley 44:47

So that was Katie and Emily, and I just love working with those two. They’re fabulous.

Candice Reed 44:51

I know. It is truly one of my favorite parts of this job, is to get to work with them and our other colleagues daily. They care so much for the attorneys, and paralegals, and legal operations professionals, and all of the candidates that they work with so much. I’ve seen how they’ve reached out and tended to and cared for the many attorneys and paralegals who work with us over the last year, and sending care packages, and just calling to check in. They truly are fantastic, and I really enjoy working with them, and they’ve got great advice too.

Tim Haley 45:35

And a great sense of humor, and they’re fun to talk to, and they’re great.

Candice Reed 45:49

We just love them. Can you tell? Oh, yeah, they’re great. They’re great. As are all the other recruiters that we work with as well.

Tim Haley 45:49

Yeah, we got to give love to Natalie, and Cynthia, and Joan, and everybody else on the Latitude team. It’s a lot of fun.

Candice Reed 45:53

That’s right. When you start naming names, you’re going to get in trouble for all the ones that you left out.

Tim Haley 45:59

I don’t think we forgot anybody. Did we?

Candice Reed 46:01

You’re going to have to come back and give another acceptance speech, right?

Tim Haley 46:04

That’s right. That’s right.

Candice Reed 46:04

Where you pick up your Oscar, or your Tony, or your Grammy, or Emmy, and you leave out-

Tim Haley 46:09

I thank the Academy-

Candice Reed 46:10

Your wife.

Tim Haley 46:13

Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. Yeah.

Candice Reed 46:13

You’re going to have to, I don’t know, go on LinkedIn and give another shout out. But yeah, they’re great and they do have a lot of good advice, and I hope that everyone learns something, and can benefit from the tips that they shared today. Tim, I know next week you’re going to be talking to some folks about alternative legal service providers.

Tim Haley 46:38

Yeah, it’ll be fun.

Candice Reed 46:39

That’s the new buzzword on the streets, right? We’re hearing a lot about them in various legal publications recently.

Tim Haley 46:48

I wouldn’t say it’s new. It’s probably 25 years old, but-

Candice Reed 46:51

Everything’s relative.

Tim Haley 46:52

That’s right, but they’re exploding now, and especially … I mean, we’re going to talk about all kinds of ALSPs from the tech to the captives, to the independents, to all the different varieties that are out there, just to get a lay of the land on where things are, and where they might be going in the future.

Candice Reed 47:08

It’s something we know a little bit about.

Tim Haley 47:11

A little bit. A little bit.

Candice Reed 47:12

Yeah. Okay. Well, we look forward to talking with you again here in a couple of weeks.

Tim Haley 47:20

Thank you for joining us today. If you found this content valuable, please tell a friend or colleague about us. Also, if you can, please give us a rating and a short review on your podcast listening platform. The more ratings and reviews we have, the more people will find us. If you have a question, reach out to us at latitudelegal.com.