Empowering Legal Teams with Flex Talent Solutions

Transcript

Candice Reed 00:00

Losing good people because they are burned out, overworked, over-stressed, that is a very costly loss.

Tim Haley 00:09

They’re more productive when they don’t feel overwhelmed, when they’re less stressed.

Candice Reed 00:12

So bringing on flexible talent –

Tim Haley 00:15

It’s a great way to optimize the workflow in-house.

Alex Su 00:19

These are all themes that come together, when it comes to flex talent.

Candice Reed 00:24

This is Leveraging Latitude, Cultivating a Full Life in the Law. Join us on our journey, as we discover how to leverage the hard work of becoming a lawyer.

Candice Reed 00:35

Hello, welcome to Leveraging Latitude. It has been a minute since we last got together. Tim, how are you doing?

Tim Haley 00:45

Candice, I’m great. It has been a long time.

Candice Reed 00:48

It’s so great to hear you in my ear again.

Tim Haley 00:52

Well, of course, we talk all the time. But we haven’t sat down and recorded any of our wonderful brainstorming sessions.

Candice Reed 01:00

I was going to say, you definitely have a podcast voice.

Tim Haley 01:06

I’ll lean into it. Right.

Candice Reed 01:08

Let’s dive in. Welcome to everyone who is listening. Before we get started, I am so excited to introduce a third cohost to the Leveraging Latitude reboot, Alex Su.

Candice Reed 01:26

Alex, welcome.

Alex Su 01:28

Thank you, Candice and Tim. I’m so excited to be here.

Candice Reed 01:31

We are so excited to have you. Not only is Alex joining the podcast, I want to properly welcome Alex not just to the podcast, but also to Latitude.

Candice Reed 01:48

Since we last spoke, several episodes ago, when you were so kind to talk to us about your career, and how you got from law school, and federal clerkship, to making funny videos that entertained all of us during the pandemic. You have since joined Latitude, as our Chief Revenue Officer.

Alex Su 02:16

Thank you, Candice. Thanks for letting me join the podcast. I’m so excited to be here because I was a guest, and now I’m a cohost. The last time I came on the podcast, I don’t think I fully understood what flex talent was. I think, over the years, having met all of you, having talked to all the members of the team, I feel like I have a better sense of it. But still, I’m only four months in. It’s still pretty new to me.

Alex Su 02:42

Well, I thought that what we could to today is talk a little bit about Latitude and what flex talent is. A lot of people I think, who are listening in, may not necessarily know what flex talent is. Maybe, Candice, what do you tell people when they say, “What is Latitude?”

Candice Reed 02:53

I explain that Latitude works with both corporate legal departments and law firms of varying sizes to provide them with high-end, experienced attorneys and other legal professionals on an as-needed or flexible basis. Sometimes that means that our attorneys are going in and covering a three-month maternity leave, for example. Other times, that means that they’re going in on a full-time basis, to expand a legal department’s existing bench under a hiring freeze. Or during a time of transition. For example, when a company has recently acquired another company. Not only does the legal department then have to continue with its day-to-day operational duties, but it has this extra work that its team may not have the capacity to focus on. Our folks come in, folks who have had that experience, and come in and help out for as long as they’re needed. Then when they’re done, they go work with someone else. I often like to use the example of Mary Poppins.

Alex Su 04:18

I love it.

Candice Reed 04:18

Our attorneys are like Mary Poppins. They float in when you need them, and then make everything happy again. Then when you no longer need them, they go away and move on to help the next family.

Alex Su 04:33

I love that. That’s such a great, succinct, and articulate way to explain it.

Tim Haley 04:38

On the law firm side, if I’m talking to somebody who’s really attuned to pricing issues, I can use a phrase like, “Oh, we’re pricing leverage sold separately.” That totally gets to the point where it’s like, “Oh, you got an additional price point, leverage point, talent point that you can weave into your team.” It can be a subject matter sold separately for a firm or for an in-house legal department. Just in a different way to build out your team.

Tim Haley 05:09

I had an old partner who called it, “Staff augmentation,” which is a pretty common phrase in other industries, but not so much in the legal space. There’s a lot of different ways you can say it and get the point across.

Alex Su 05:24

Yeah. I think you both have spent so much time talking about Latitude. I’m constantly finding different ways to say it. What the listeners I think may know, or some of you may not know, is that both Candice and Tim were both practicing lawyers before.

Tim Haley 05:39

Well, you were, too.

Alex Su 05:40

I was, too.

Candice Reed 05:41

We all were, right?

Alex Su 05:42

We all were. We all were. So many people in our company used to practice law. I think everyone’s got such a great story of how they ended up here. But I wanted to hear more about, maybe first with Candice. Tell us about how you ended up at Latitude, and what you did before?

Candice Reed 06:00

I’ve had several pivots throughout my career. I would like to say that they were intentional and well-planned. But the honest answer is that I don’t think it was ever on my radar to do this when I was in law school, preparing for a legal career.

Candice Reed 06:26

I think for me, it was easier to keep myself open to new opportunities because I made a change early on in my career. As a sixth-year lawyer, I left the practice of law. I wasn’t sure whether I was ever going to go back. I ultimately did. But making that first move outside of the traditional lawyer space, I really think that gave me the freedom to try some new things that may or may not have made sense to anyone else but me. Because I always knew that, if it didn’t work out, I was still a lawyer. I still knew how to be a lawyer. I still had my law license. I still had my connections and my network. And I still had a reputation for doing good work.

Candice Reed 07:30

That was really a gift, early in my career, to be able to try something new, because I never really felt like I was trapped in any one position. I have taken advantage of some opportunities that I wouldn’t have foreseen, but that I’m so glad I got to be a part of.

Alex Su 07:50

I love that. Careers are not linear, they’re not ladders. They’re like jungle gyms. You never know what you can find if you don’t try something different. I love the idea that you found that something didn’t fit and you tried something different. I think a lot of lawyers can really relate to that, or at least want to do that.

Alex Su 08:12

I’m curious, for Tim, now turning to you, for your career. How did you leave the law to join Latitude? I wonder if you had a similar experience or something different?

Tim Haley 08:25

For me, I was at a firm. I was with the same firm for almost 14 years. Three things happened. I was an environmental attorney. I was doing a bunch of the permitting. You’d get this particular group, there’s some 40 or 50 permits that you’d have to get. There was really a vocal group of opposition to the project. We’d be sitting in this back room, planning for this public hearing, or that public hearing, or the next public hearing. Some version of the question was, “Hey, what if we have to make changes to the site? Can we do this? Can we do that? Can we do that to the site plan?” The general contractor was in the room. He’d be like, “Well, I got to talk to the …” This was for a quarry. He’s like, “Well, I got to talk to the dynamite guy, or the demolition team.” Or, “I’ve got to talk to the real estate group.” Or, “I’ve got to talk to whatever.” Meanwhile, I was almost exclusively doing all of the legal work. In my head I’m like, “Why is it that they are subbing everything out? We, the lawyers, are not doing that.” I remember sitting in my office thinking, “It is far too efficient to do that. Why wouldn’t the law move in that direction?” That thought was rattling in my head.

Alex Su 09:42

Did you think of that before you even heard of Latitude? Or was that inspired in part because of Latitude?

Tim Haley 09:48

Oh, yeah. No. This was something that happened probably two or three years before I even heard of Latitude. It was just a random thought that was rattling in my head.

Tim Haley 09:58

The other thing that was going on about the same time. I was a partner, so I had clients. We started, our firm had a brand new pricing, legal ops professional that was hired. He started introducing me into all these legal project management skills, and different pricing techniques, and different ways to do … Maybe we do a flat fee, maybe we do this model, maybe we do that model. That was a really cool rabbit hole to go down. Just different ways that you could earn a living practicing law, even as a law firm attorney.

Tim Haley 10:34

All of that was rattling around in my brain. Then, yeah, I met Ross, and we started talking. Then a spark of an opportunity. That’s why I left to come to Latitude.

Alex Su 10:50

Tim, that’s such a great story because it’s not just that you found the opportunity, you also had been thinking about this for a while. I wonder, now that you’re at Latitude, how is it different? What does your day-to-day look like compared to what it used to be at the firm?

Tim Haley 11:06

Yeah. The legal practice, I didn’t realize it at the time because there’s always meetings and phone calls and stuff, but the legal practice is inherently lonely. It’s inherently solitude. You got to read your reports, and that takes time. And you got to write whatever, either memo or brief, or whatever you’re working on, and that takes time. A deposition outline, whatever. There’s a lot of quiet time. In this job, there’s not so much quiet time. I’m out meeting with people and talking with people. I’m trying to get more involved in the community in different ways. In part, because I can and I care about it, but also because that’s where other people are. The job now is way more people-facing than it was as a lawyer in the firm.

Candice Reed 11:55

Alex, you’ve asked us what brought us to Latitude. But what brought you to Latitude? Was it our interview? Was that it? Was it our podcast interview?

Alex Su 12:06

It was the podcast, Candice. It was the podcast interview. It was meeting you, Tim. It was meeting Ross. Am I saying the right answers? I’m looking at your text, Candice. I think I nailed the talking points.

Tim Haley 12:19

Woo-hoo!

Alex Su 12:19

Why did I join Latitude? I never expected to. I had not heard of flex talent. I had not heard of Latitude. I was introduced to Ross through a mutual friend. At the time, I was working in legal tech doing marketing. I had done sales. Ross asked me, “Hey, is there any way you can help us out with sales and marketing?” One thing led to another. I became an advisor. And through being an advisor, I got to meet everybody at Latitude. I just really enjoyed all the people. I especially loved that everyone had a tie-in to the legal community. Whether it’s through their local community, or nationally. I think one of the challenges I’ve had in the technology space, which is where I was before, was that a lot of people at those companies are technology people, not law people. They don’t have a longstanding connection to this world that we inhabit.

Alex Su 13:23

I really liked the idea that Latitude had been serving clients for so long so well, and I thought I could help. When the opportunity came up, I decided to join. I think it was a very easy decision because of all of the wonderful people. The number of clients that were so happy with Latitude. Latitude has all these recognitions from Chambers, NLJ. It’s just very obvious that clients are very happy with Latitude.

Tim Haley 13:53

What do you think, Candice? A-plus, A?

Candice Reed 13:57

Definitely. I want to pick up on one of the things that you mentioned. It’s interesting to me to hear you say that our client service delivery was one of the things that brought you to the company, because I think that we have been very intentional about keeping a high bar on client service. I think that it is because so many of us have been in our clients’ shoes previously. Either as in-house counsel, or as law firm attorneys. We can appreciate how much pressure our clients are under. The work – the amount of work that they are expected to do, day in and day out, on a consistent basis. How quickly they need an answer. Knowing just what our clients are going through, I think helps our delivery of client service.

Candice Reed 15:05

It is something that I know was important to us in the beginning, when we were first starting Latitude. It has been consistently important to us throughout. It’s one of the things that we hear our clients talk about, why they want to work with us, or why they come back. It is something really important, and I’m so glad that that was evident to when you were looking at us. First just as a curiosity-seeker, then later fan. And then now, partner. So, thank you.

Tim Haley 15:45

There’s just a lot of weird things about being a lawyer that you don’t know unless you live them. Especially when I was practicing, there would be a lot of, “Why can’t you come home now?” Or, “Why can’t we go to this place?” There’s all these little things that the person who is not in your shoes has no way to fathom what it is that you’re working through in your head. I think there’s something to being lawyers working with lawyers that helps those situations go smoother.

Candice Reed 16:18

Yeah. It’s not a substitute for building the relationship, but it is a shortcut at times.

Tim Haley 16:25

Right. Totally. It’s nice to be like, “Oh, what do you do for a living? Oh, I’m a products liability defense litigator.” I’m like, “I know exactly what that is.” I know a lot of what your day-to-day is, and you said three words.

Candice Reed 16:42

Right. Or the difference, with the recruiting team especially. I see it come into play because they’re all former attorneys as well. Not that you have to be an attorney to hire an attorney. But again, I think it allows for some shortcuts that are often helpful in just understanding or discerning what the need is. For example, when we have a client say that they need a corporate attorney. Well, does that mean that you need someone to assist with M&A? Or do you need someone to review contracts? Are those contracts customer revenue generating contracts? Or are those procurement contracts? Those are some distinctions that we, or our recruiting team in this example, might appreciate that maybe someone who hasn’t either practiced law, or been in that legal operation space, may not appreciate.

Candice Reed 17:59

It does help us drill down a bit. I think that it’s helpful. It’s one of the ways that … As interesting as I find AI, and I certainly do think that there is a far bigger place for it in our profession generally, I do think people still matter. There are still some things that we can do better. Those are some of the distinctions that I think matter, especially to clients. We’re not necessarily just pulling words from a resume, but we’re really understanding what someone’s talking about when they tell us their experience, and that they’ve worked in corporate law, for example.

Alex Su 18:52

Candice, that’s definitely true in my experience. The human element sometimes gets missed. That’s very true. Sometimes I noticed, and a big part of the reason why I wanted to join Latitude, because I noticed that Latitude did have that close-knit relationship with the community it served. One thing that you mentioned about recruiting that I thought might be helpful for the listeners is could you share, maybe briefly, about how we’re structured? For example, the type of work that you and Tim both do is different than perhaps what some of the recruiters here do. Maybe for someone less familiar with Latitude, if you could share how we operate and how we break down our teams?

Candice Reed 19:35

Sure. For the most part, our operations are broken down into two primary parts. Putting aside, for the time being or for this conversation, our accounting and technology functions, all the corporate, back-office functions. For our client services teams, we have those of us who are in client relationships and business development. We’re working directly with our clients to learn more about what their needs are, and to see whether flexible talent might be a helpful resource, either now or in the future. That’s the space that Tim and I work in primarily.

Candice Reed 20:26

Then there is the candidate side of our business, what we put into the big bucket of recruiting. Though to be fair, that encompasses probably about eight different sub-buckets of responsibility of tasks. Our recruiting team are our placement directors. They are the ones primarily educating attorneys and other legal professionals on the opportunities that are available in flex talent. And specifically, the opportunities that Latitude has available with its clients. A lot of it is just getting to know attorneys in their markets. It’s one reason why we do have many markets scattered throughout the United States. We recognize that cities and bars have their own personalities and cultures. We want people who have been a part of those communities, and who are still a part of those communities. So that, even someone who may just be contemplating making a move, or thinking, “Oh, I’m really having a hard time setting boundaries with my current position. I would feel so much better about practicing law if I could just turn it off at 5:00 every day.” Or only work certain days, or so many hours. Hopefully, they feel comfortable reaching out to one of our recruiters to have a conversation that’s almost like the one we’re having now. Which is, “Tell me, what is it that Latitude does?” It really is an education process initially.

Candice Reed 22:21

Then we have a very rigorous vetting process that takes place after that, if someone is interested in working with us or with one of our clients on a contract basis. It’s becoming more and more popular, in my opinion. I started in the flexible talent space in 2005. Over the last almost 20 years, I’ve seen a lot of trends. I’ve seen the evolution of the industry. I think that people, attorneys and other legal professionals now, recognize that the flexible talent space is not where you go if you can’t find a “real job.” I think that that was the negative and incorrect stereotype early on. I don’t regularly come into contact with that stereotype anymore. Thankfully, I think most of us recognize that this is a way to practice law. For many of our positions, it’s what you get to do after you have proven yourself a very capable and experienced lawyer in a more traditional legal job. Not everybody can do what Latitude attorneys do. Which is work in contract engagements where they are setting those boundaries. They are taking advantage of some flexibility. And they’re also getting paid well, with a robust benefit package. And working for interesting clients on sophisticated matters, et cetera, et cetera. There are a lot of boxes that I think we check.

Tim Haley 24:18

To Candice’s point, you want to be where people feel comfortable asking you for advice, asking you what you’re seeing in wherever. That’s true locally. It’s true even in national groups. Alex, I know you’ve seen it in your involvement with CLOC, and some of the other groups I know you’re involved with. You create a community in a lot of different ways, and you’re a part of communities in a lot of different ways. Just noticing where your friends are, and who you’ve worked with over the years. My old practice was pretty national. I have, yeah, a lot of local people, but I also had a lot of national contacts, too. Maybe I wouldn’t see them every day, but twice a year or once a year, I knew I was going to see them and hang out, so you’ve got a relationship that way, too.

Candice Reed 25:09

It’s a great point. It’s a great point that our communities are no longer just based on geography or occupation. I do think that that has been one of the silver linings, or the positive ramifications of the pandemic. You knew I was going to mention that. So everyone who had that on your Bingo card, go ahead and put that chip down.

Tim Haley 25:37

It was a free space, Candice. It’s okay.

Candice Reed 25:41

That was this collective experience that we all shared. What I see now, certainly more than ever before, is what you’re talking about, Tim. It’s that people have leaned into building communities outside from their local neighborhoods, bars, et cetera. You have people like Alex. Like Kyle Robisch, who’s another of our partners at Latitude in Tampa, who have built these robust online communities. You have others who – like you, Tim – who have been involved in certain national associations that pull together people. Not just attorneys, but people throughout the legal profession, in various positions, who are working in the legal ops space. Both firms, in-house. It’s a great point, and I’m glad that you mentioned it. That it’s not just about geography anymore, but we’re building community in a lot of different ways.

Alex Su 26:57

Why do you think people are interested in flex talent these days? Whether it’s Indy, Nashville, or anywhere.

Tim Haley 27:02

The in-house corporate side is no stranger to flex talent. They’ve been doing it for decades, at this point. It is a regular tool in their toolbox that they deploy as needed. Every organization is a little bit different in how they decide to use that resource. It’s a great way to optimize the workflow in-house, so that you don’t end up overpaying for stuff that you really shouldn’t overpay for. On the law firm side, right now, there’s so much pressure. Every year, there just is more, and more, and more pressure. There’s more pressure to show profitability. There’s more pressure to bill hours. There’s more pressure to bring in clients. I think law firms are giving flex talent a really hard look.

Candice Reed 27:58

Law firms have the opportunity to capitalize on additional revenue streams that they may not otherwise be able to take on. For example, we’re now seeing firms of various sizes use flexible talent to do work that they were previously turning away. With the large firms, we’re seeing them bring on flexible talent to capture or do work that otherwise might not have been cost-effective.

Tim Haley 28:37

Yeah. They’d be priced out of, for sure.

Candice Reed 28:37

Right.

Tim Haley 28:40

Yeah.

Candice Reed 28:41

It’s the kind of work that you can’t charge $700 an hour for, but you could charge a couple hundred.

Tim Haley 28:51

300. Yeah, whatever.

Candice Reed 28:53

Yeah, right. Two to 500, there’s a pretty wide range there. Bringing on flexible talent at the hourly rates that we typically charge allows them to do more of that work. On the flip side, with many of the boutique firms that we work with, you’ll see them engage flexible talent to take on bigger matters that they couldn’t handle with their permanent staff and they didn’t want to add additional permanent attorneys, either partner track associates or partners themselves, for one deal, or for one case. But with flexible talent, they can take that case, they can work that deal because they can pull in people just for that period of time that they need. I do think that law firms in particular are starting to see more and more ways that they can use Latitude attorneys to capitalize on additional revenue streams. Then of course, your corporate legal departments who are being tasked with doing more, often with less, they need the additional resources, and that’s where flexible talent comes in.

Tim Haley 30:17

I there’s two things. Candice, that first example is a textbook example of the leverage sold separately test case that I threw out there earlier. Where you, as a firm, have hundreds of resources but all of them are too expensive. What do you do? Or you’re working a particular matter and you’re missing a price point, or an expertise level at some point. It’s all leverage sold separately. The second one. For example, I have a client, it’s a boutique firm. A longstanding client. Happened to get into an IP dispute. Well, he doesn’t do IP. Normally, he had to refer it out. But we can give him somebody to second chair that case, and he can keep that case. It becomes a win-win for them.

Tim Haley 31:12

The only other point that I want to add to what you said is that, on the company side, it’s not always about saving money because there’s a partnership here, too. Where outside counsel, in-house counsel, and a law company like a Latitude can work together to optimize something really, really big. Some companies are demanding that law firms use ALSPs in some way, just to reduce the cost. That’s been happening for years, too. The easy example is in document review. There are more cases for it. There’s more ways to do it if you have people who are forward-thinking and creative enough to sit down at the table and really optimize it.

Candice Reed 32:08

And let’s dispel the rumor that attorneys are always a cost center for a corporation. Because we are now seeing attorneys, either our attorneys or attorneys who may be working directly with companies as in-house counsel, partnering with the business to actually create revenue for the company. I know that one of the clients that I currently work with, years ago, came to me just asking to brainstorm. Their business was anticipating … They saw what they thought was an additional division or revenue stream, but they needed the support of legal. But they didn’t want to invest heavily in a permanent team because they weren’t sure if what they thought they could do, they could do. That’s a typical pilot project. We put together a team of attorneys who were going to help this company in the healthcare space seek higher reimbursement for some of the services that they were delivering. And it worked. It has been a good partnership for a while. It also showed the business that legal can actually help move business forward and generate income. It’s not always about spending money to defend cases. Or spending money on a deal, or something like that. As I said before, not all lawyers or not all legal work is a cost center.

Tim Haley 34:08

I think every major company has, I’m going to call it an acquisitions arm. You’re always on the look-out to grow your team inorganically, as they say. Where you’re just going to buy up a competitor, or buy up a different vertical, or whatever. That’s a business exercise, that’s not a cost center exercise. The same lawyers might be working on both sides of it. But, yeah, absolutely. I think that’s a great point.

Alex Su 34:41

What I love about flex talent is that you don’t have to necessarily add FTEs. It’s not just adding headcount. There’s a much smaller investment. Sometimes, you need to pair the right resources with the right strategic projects. Maybe you don’t need 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year from someone. You just need a discrete project done. I think innovative lawyers at law firms and legal departments, they’re going to view flex talent as a way to get those projects done.

Tim Haley 35:11

Totally.

Candice Reed 35:12

There’s one other example that I want to hit on. We don’t often talk about attorney or legal professionals’ well-being within the context of either saving money or making money. But losing really good people because they are burned out, overworked, over-stressed, that is a very costly loss for most firms and most businesses. Paula Davis, who was also a prior guest of our podcast, wrote a book a couple of years ago called Beating Burnout at Work. I highly recommend it. It’s a relatively short book. Easy read, easily digestible, and with very practical suggestions for increasing the well-being of your team. She talks about how burnout is the result of really, not having enough resources to meet expectations. An individual starts to experience the symptoms of burnout because of a systemic problem within the organization where they have tasked individuals for completing this much work, but only given them the resources necessary to complete a fraction of it.

Candice Reed 36:53

It is so satisfying to me to now have conversations with general counsel and law firm partners where they’re saying, “My team is on the verge of burnout. I need to get them some help.” It’s not just about capitalizing on a new potential revenue generating business or project, or saving money in order to come in under budget for the year or on budget for the year. A lot of leaders are seeing flexible talent as a resource in that well-being space, to be able to protect their team. To give them that additional help when they need it. And then, to remove the help when it’s no longer needed, and protect their teams’ advancement opportunities.

Candice Reed 37:46

But during those times that are really hectic and there’s a lot of work, again, the integration that you talked about, the business integration that you talked about, Tim, I think is a good example of that. Where it’s like, “Yes, we want you to continue to do the work that you’ve always been doing. And we now have this other extra big thing.” I see a lot of legal leaders bringing in flexible talent to help with that extra big thing. I think that that attention to their teams’ well-being and the looking for interesting, novel solutions to protect their team is something that’s not unnoticed by those team members. It’s one of the things that you can do not just to cultivate a well culture, but also to ingratiate loyalty among your team.

Tim Haley 38:44

Workers are more productive when they are happy at work. They’re more productive when they don’t feel overwhelmed, when they’re less stressed. There’s a real economic case to make for keeping your people happy, keeping your team engaged.

Alex Su 39:02

Yeah. Turnover is expensive. These are all themes that come together when it comes to flex talent. I could tell the both of you get very excited about this topic. I wish we had all this extra time to keep talking about it, but I think we are coming up on time. Maybe we’ll leave it at that.

Alex Su 39:22

I think that’s all we’ve got for this episode. Thanks, everyone, for tuning in. Check us out on all the socials. Reach out to us if you have any comments or questions. Thanks for joining.

Candice Reed 39:33

Alex, we’re so glad you’re here. Thanks for taking the co-hosting oar for this session. We’re really glad to have you as part of the Latitude team now, too.

Tim Haley 39:45

Candice, you always say it better than me. I love that. Thanks, Alex.

Tim Haley 39:49

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